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kiwiflyer45

AI Aircraft landing short of the runway

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From what I have read, the issue is not the airports or AFCADS but the AI aircraft FDE. Several of the design forums have threads regarding this. AI Guru, Jim Vile had some interesting comments on the subject and I quote: "A word about AI Plane modelers FDE'sI am only one person (for the last 5 years) trying to show AI plane modeler's that in FS9 and FSX there are curves and circle to land approaches built into the default approach code.Microsoft made their default planes NOT ONLY flyable but AI plane behavior also. A FS9/FSX flyable plane like the B747-400 can turn and align with a runway very well when used as a AI plane. A 3rd party AI Plane has very poor FDE's since it can only land on a straight final approach.Look at how many AI Planes have trouble shooting my curved Kai Tak approach and then land on the side of the runway. I have been telling modler's that AI Planes MUST be able to turn on short final as per FS9 and FSX. Modeler's just don't get it!!!Modler's and FDE design groups brag about how well their planes look on approach and flair for landing but if you test their planes at PHNL using the default FS9/FSX LDA to rwy 26L which is a curved approach their same AI Plane is junk.I say that because for 5 years I have ask them to give us AI Planes with proper wingspans/model radius (for parking), use the correct empty weights (for runway selection), use the 13 .cfg values to make a AI Plane behave the same as a default Microsoft plane, stop the sink rate in a turn when gear is coming down (turn to final), and all this continues to fall on deaf ears. Jan Martin is updating all his FDE's to look more like a real plane but I do not know if he is testing the FDE's as per what FS9/FSX requires (see below).Test your curved approach with a Microsoft default plane of the same size that will use the airport. If the default B737-800 can turn and align then 3rd party AI Planes of same size should be able to do it also. Many can't so I have to push the turn to final back a little bit for the crappy AI planes FDE's.There is another small problem. All of the FSX Microsoft planes are designed with flying characteristics which uses a updated different type aircraft.air file and companion aircraft.cfg file. ALL 3rd party Freeware AI Planes being uploaded today are designed using FS9 .air and .cfg files. There is no such thing has a 3rd Party Freeware FSX AI Plane and we import these FS9 AI planes into FSX.PAI did not have the best looking textures and were not Frame rate friendly but they had the best FDE's which the behavior is more toward a FS9 default plane. Arrdvark have the worst FDE's and all the rest fall in between. Most Ardvarks cannot land/roll out very well unless a ILS approach code exist. Thank goodness for a ILS approach code which can make any AI Plane look good on the approach and landing. Roll out is another story.If a 3rd party AI Plane is as good as a default FS9/FSX Plane it must1. Fly a default ILS approach where the approach code controls the atitude of the AI Plane and target point on the runway for touchdown.2. Fly a non ILS approach such as the RWY 09 at TNCM (visual app)3. Fly the PHNL LDA 26L approach when airport is IMC4. Fly the PADU Circle to land approach for either end of rwy 12/30The default FS9/FSX planes have no trouble with these default approaches. If the 3rd party AI Plane can fly them as well as the default MS planes then I will say that impresses me. "Hope that sheds some light on the issue.Clutch


Intel i9-12900KF, Asus Prime Z690-A MB, 64GB DDR5 6000 RAM, (3) SK hynix M.2 SSD (2TB ea.), 16TB Seagate HDD, EVGA GeForce 3080 Ti, Corsair iCUE H70i AIO Liquid Cooler, UHD/Blu-ray Player/Burner (still have lots of CDs, DVDs!)  Windows 10, (hold off for now on Win11),  EVGA 1300W PSU
Netgear 1Gbps modem & router, (3) 27" 1440 wrap-around displays
Full array of Saitek and GoFlight hardware for the cockpit

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As the old movies used to say "The plot thickens!" (Or something to that effect..) :( This is apparently a much more complicated issue than I thought. I still plan to do my promised "experiment" when I've got some spare time - I will make sure I use default AI as a baseline and if I cannot get the problem to happen with scheduling, will then mix in some 3rd party traffic to see if that is the problem. I will also make sure I observe that 15 minute "window" to ensure the AI has sorted itself out. (Truly can't remember how far into the flights the problem has occurred at).. Clutch, I really appreciate all your excellent information and the trouble you have taken in explaining it all to someone like myself who, though a real-world pilot, is an absolute novice when it comes to the programming aspect of FS. But I have to challenge the use of the word "junk" in relation to Aardvark AI aircraft. I can't comment on their FDE and I readily bow to your obvious knowledge and expertise on that issue, but IMHO Aardvark deserve nothing but praise for their efforts over the years to give us all outstanding AI aircraft that are great to look at, give excellent frame rates and have really set the standard in many ways for others to follow in terms of their visual realism. I just needed to say that I am uncomfortable with the word "junk" in regard to their many contributions to the hobby. But if their FDE is causing problems, it will be great if we can come up with a fix. BTW, when you referred to Kai Tak I assume you mean the 9D version? If so, I can attest to the fact that I have done a lot of "plane spotting" there as it is such a pleasure to watch AI land at that awesome scenery, and I've never seen any problems of the kind I reported here when starting this thread. And the vast majority of my AI are WOA which in turn are mostly AIA. As I said at the beginning, this problem seems to be a complex one and maybe the issues are multiple ones...Again, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread and I'll try to make my own contribution when I have some time to tinker with it.

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hey kiwiflyer45,Glad that was helpful but again, that was a quote I read, those are not my own words. I would never be so harsh (at least in a forum) to call someone's modeling "junk". I've uploaded a lot of add-ons over the years and that would come right back and bite me in the butt, ha! Believe me, I am no expert on AI performance but a student like yourself. I did pick up a lot when designing 9Dragons - one can only do so much when designing an airport to accommodate AI performance, especially if one has a tricky approach like Kai Tak.Jim was probably referring to a version of Kai Tak he created - not 9Dragons but the principal is the same. To land properly AI aircraft must be given the same respect as a regular designed aircraft in order to perform up to standards. But I admit, I do like plane spotting at 9D too as the aircraft don't land perfectly every time. That's part of the fun.Clutch


Intel i9-12900KF, Asus Prime Z690-A MB, 64GB DDR5 6000 RAM, (3) SK hynix M.2 SSD (2TB ea.), 16TB Seagate HDD, EVGA GeForce 3080 Ti, Corsair iCUE H70i AIO Liquid Cooler, UHD/Blu-ray Player/Burner (still have lots of CDs, DVDs!)  Windows 10, (hold off for now on Win11),  EVGA 1300W PSU
Netgear 1Gbps modem & router, (3) 27" 1440 wrap-around displays
Full array of Saitek and GoFlight hardware for the cockpit

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hey kiwiflyer45,Glad that was helpful but again, that was a quote I read, those are not my own words. I would never be so harsh (at least in a forum) to call someone's modeling "junk". I've uploaded a lot of add-ons over the years and that would come right back and bite me in the butt, ha! Believe me, I am no expert on AI performance but a student like yourself. I did pick up a lot when designing 9Dragons - one can only do so much when designing an airport to accommodate AI performance, especially if one has a tricky approach like Kai Tak.Jim was probably referring to a version of Kai Tak he created - not 9Dragons but the principal is the same. To land properly AI aircraft must be given the same respect as a regular designed aircraft in order to perform up to standards. But I admit, I do like plane spotting at 9D too as the aircraft don't land perfectly every time. That's part of the fun.Clutch
Hi ClutchThanks for the reply. After I posted my response I re-read what you had said and realized that it was Jim who used the word "junk" and not you. I should have gone back and edited what I'd written. Sorry about that. I want you to know that I think 9Dragons is an astonishing product. Everything about it is spectacular. One of my favorite saved flights uses David Maltby's DH Comet in BOAC colours at the 9D VHHX and whenever I am demonstrating FS to someone who hasn't seen it before, I invariably pick that flight as my "demo" as it is so spectacular yet has perfect frame rates. So very well done mate and thank you for your wonderful work.

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I noticed this at KSFO as well, planes skimming across the water before 'landing' on the runway. I was using aiseparation at the time. A switch to aismooth fixed the problem. It could be that when it gets super-busy some planes in aiseparation get slewed backwards for separation and continue on the glideslope as if they weren't slewed.

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And to add to the mess, I get this problem at times and I use AI Smooth. So there you go....

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Hi,I have seen this problem occasionally with all AI I have tried (and all FD). I think it is just an FS bug that happens once in a while. Almost all of my AI do fine on the curved approaches, so it's not related to that.

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