David/Lefteris,I also concur with your/his view. Nothing else to add, well said.

>To be honest, I have completely given up on the Fly!/II >lineRayWould you be so kind as to email me as I would like to pose a few questions to you for some [email protected]

Hi Lefteris,I would not pay $99 for PMDG aircraft (current quality), to be honest. 50$ would be the limit.You have seen the success of the PIC767, so why don't you start developing for FS200x? As you can see, it's possible to create very good add-ons for this simulator!I don't like Fly!2 anyway because it just not user friendly and it just seem to be not flexible enough for a good add-on. It also has some bugs, the autopilot is too restricted etc.FS200x is just more flexible, it has well defined interfaces, the sound model is great(!) and the graphics are fast (at least FS2002) and neat.So I would love to see an FS200x add-on from PMDG. I'm sure that you could sell more units than for FLY!2. Plus, there is no other company at this time that produces highly realistic panels/aircraft for FS200x (except PIC), so that would be a great chance!Again, I would spend max. 50$greetingsMalteEDDH

Malte-in all honesty, Malte, I don't get you, sometimes... You moved earth and sky to be onboard our beta testers team for Fly!2 (and I *personally* argued in your favor, despite previous negative behavior on your part which made some of the beta team members quite uncomfortable), yet now you say that you don't like Fly!2 at all...Since you don't like it at all, as it's not user friendly and inflexible, why did you want to be on our beta team? This smells "software for free" to me... I sincerely hope this is not the case.I feel your message is somewhat inappropriate, as you must already have seen that PMDG is already considering several items for FS2K2.Anyhow-freedom of speech, I suppose, must hold true here... However, I personally get really discouraged with posts such as yours...Lefteris

Sure thing Michael, sorry I blocked my address here, but after the incident popping mail in my @work box, I figured better to be safe then sorry...It will be in your inbox shortly ... but I'm curious, you might want to post here as well, as there are many great folks around with skills beyond mine ;-)Ray

Michael,I understand that there are very few aircraft that can compare to 767PIC. I have 767PIC & FS2002 now on my system, along with Fly II & PMDG's 777, as well as PS 1.3a's 747.I am always happy to give credit to the accomplishment of these 3 groups (although Hardy can not be called a group :-lol), and would recommend any of them to anyone, but I always have to include the warnings too, as much as I like things, I will not blindly try and convert folks.PMDG's work is amazing, but obviously they are forced into Fly II's faults no matter how much talent they invest to work around them.767PIC looks great as far as my hatred for MS's panel systems - they really worked wonders here, although inside the cockpit in most other FS aircraft, I really feel like we are back in 1998.Precision Simulator, well, what can you say, it IS the perfect simulator, because it does not have to deal with anything else. It stands on it's own. It has everything except out the window. It is DOS based and due to real estate issues, the systems are there but the panels are not. Interesting trade off. There are a few things missing, but they are pretty trivial in the greater scheme of things.If I could take the FS2002 outside world, Fly's panels, PMDG's & PIC's graphics and slap them into PS, with Jeppesen current navdata, I would be in heaven. What would I be willing to pay for such a beast? Probably $1000.If PMDG wants to switch over to FS dev, great for them, they will make some amazing FS aircraft, but I think they will be running into a lot of walls since MS isn't really in the business of supporting addons, and PMDG's ability to work with Rich (who giving proper funding could build the above dream sim because he has the vision) will not be available to make that critical Fly fix that resolves some PMDG nightmare.It's really sad that these talented guys are trapped into working for peanuts, when put together collectively, they could probably produce the perfect sim, but thats our world.Getting to the bottom here and I realize I didn't answer your question, silly me ... Saturation ... hmm, how best to explain it. From what I have seen in the FS world, people are happy without the level of in depth system modelling that PMDG are known for producing. Yes, there is a core of folks, but they are like the Fly core folks, diehards who want 100% modelling of everything, and are willing to pay for it. There may be more of them out there in the FS world then the Fly world, but then again, it is balanced out be the number of folks producing addons for FS, so I do not see that the market may be that large. I could be totally wrong, but I see the FS market over saturated with addons already. There is just too much stuff to spend money on already, and you are pretty much forever sure that whatever you buy, you will have to replace in 2 years as it will no longer work in the FS world. Free upgrades are the death of addon makers, as the more successful they are, the more future monies they are loosing...Just my views, and I've been wrong many times :-lolRay

Hi Lefteris,Try not to get to discouraged. As has been demonstrated many times in the past, the Fly! community holds you in high regard and is very appreciative of your work. Remember you just can't please all the people all the time. I am sure his comments are only representative of a small minority.George

Lefteris,I know it's hard, but try and let such comments bounce off of you. The guy obviously doesn't deserve any of your thought power, let alone a response. =)Since the Fly! franchise now seems to be doomed, I will eventually have to move to FS2K2. Such is fate.BUT, I won't be making the move until one of the beautiful PMDG birds is available on that platform!From a business perspective, I think it would be detrimental to PMDG to continue with the Fly! line. It's sad to have to utter those words, but "business is business".Long live PMDG!- Bill

Ray,If the FS market is indeed saturated than there is little else to do since I doubt PMDG would want to go the way of PS. There is no guarantee for successfully selling $200-400 stand-alone simulators either. There are no guarantees period. If you talk to DF team you also hear complaints that the market is limited. Therefore their 737 do not meet the PIC standard in terms of system modelling. It is still quite good but doesn't go this extra mile. I personally concur that in the FS world it may not be economically viable to produce PIC-like packages. Therefore I don't think PMDG should necessarily go this way. Matching sophistication of DF737 would be quite enough. As I said turboprops and small jets is such a virgin territory in the FS that you could still probably make a few $$. The latest poll did show that this is the most sought-after category of airplanes, not the 'heavies' where the market may indeed be already saturated.Michael J.

You are quite possibly right Michael, that the middle range market instead of the heavy market might be the right place to go, my concern would be that doing it in PMDG style would be overkill for people who are used to the current level of systems in MSFS. Throwing someone used to MSFS into a turboprop would likely entail them shelling the engine the first time they tried to start things up. We all know that "As real as it gets!" actually translates to "As real as John Q Public is interested in", so it becomes a real quandry as to how much people are willing to pay and how much reality is TOO much (although Larry will probably argue with me on this point). I just don't know if the PMDG guys can hold back and make a relaxed version of a plane model more suiting the FS market, they are perfectionists, tough to not go that extra mile, even knowing it is not going to make them rich.Precision Simulator is still selling to this day, even though it is an old dos based program. Why do you think that is so? Because nothing has come along to replace it would be a safe answer. It stands alone simply because it have virtually everything, and it can do this because it has no dependancies on someone elses systems working properly. I think it is a market that PMDG could go after successfully. Based on the product price range, they would likely make a profit at it. There really are no plans to re-write PS to todays graphics and glitz, yet there are always requests for such from PS users. I think the market would bear a $200-400 777 simulator, it might be a different market the PMDG is in now, but there is certainly a market. Since Robert has such a good working relationship with Boeing, who knows, perhaps there are even commercial realms as opposed to hobby areas where this could be sold... Funny, but it seems the better the addons get, the more new folks come along and buy PS simply because they get the taste of it from playing with PMDG/PIC and now want the whole thing, which they can't get in the addons because no one can invest that amount of development into a non-standalone program as the risks of running into an bug that kills your product is too high.500 copies at $400 = $200,000 = 4,000 copies at $50 ... I think you are more likely to find 500 folks willing to cough up the $400 then 4,000 the $50 ... for the people who have the money to blow, $400 is nothing, seen the pricing on Jepp navdata??? :-lolRay

>Precision Simulator is still selling to this day, even >though it is an old dos based program. Why do you think that >is so? Because nothing has come along to replace it would be >a safe answer. It stands alone simply because it have >virtually everything, and it can do this because it has no >dependancies on someone elses systems working properly. Yes, nothing to argue about. However it basically depends who you want to be as a developer. Do you want to author a self-contained perhaps technically perfect product which is basically dead-ended and with no vibrant community around it ? Or to be a part of a larger community base constantly challenged by new technical innovations, mishaps, crazy users, competition from other teams, demands for new aircraft, platform changes/improvements, etc. ? I am really not convinced where you can make more $$ but the commercial settings are vastly different.Michael J.

Hi Lefteris,uhm...actually I don't know what you're talking about!Is it possible that you've confused me with another 'Malte'?Negative behaviour? Beta team? What?All I've done is to purchase the 757 with my own credit card (!) and I've never been on the beta team and I've never wanted to be in it! I haven't been on the forums for about half a year...And I'm sure that I've never made any beta team members uncomfortable because I've never talked to any beta team members and because I've never had anything to do with the beta team!This is Malte Dietsch from Hamburg, 24, Germany, [email protected]!never mind...MalteEDDH

I wouldn't spend more than $50 dollars on a plane. Don't take this as criticism of your work- but 50 dollars is a lot of money, especially if you don't live in the U.S. I could go log some time in a real airplane, or do any number of other things.. $100 is out of the question, that's almost 200 Canadian dollars...I don't think so.Unfortunately until (if) Fly!II gets another massive update I think the series is dead for now..... :( :(Cory

uhh no... $100 USD is just over $150 CAD.

That's still too much.