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Guest rbbarker

PMDG 737 Checklists-Theft of Intellectual Property

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In yesterday's "Latest Files" I observed a checklist for the PMDG 737 submitted by Cuyler Smith (pmdg737-700.zip). It is a slightly modified cut and paste of the checklist I created and uploaded to AVSIM for the DreamFleet 737 (df737_version_10_checklists.zip). If you're unfamiliar with my checklist, it is perhaps the most comprehensive FS checklist around. It represents months of research, full-motion flight sim time, 737 pilot interviews, etc. Although Cuyler Smith never asked for permission to copy my material, he did mention me in the file description. I wasn't pleased, but I wasn't too bothered either. Now today, I see that a Marcel Venema has uploaded another PMDG 737 checklist (pmdg_boeing_737ng_checklists.zip) which is a very slightly modified cut and paste of my checklist as well. Not only did this guy not ask permission either, but he doesn't reference me at all. He even pasted PMDG's logos into his. Now I have to step up and say something. I have contacted the library moderators. I am pleased that my checklists are of use to so many, but please don't steal my work. It is intellectual property and therefore protected. Sure a checklist is a checklist, but take a moment and compare them. It's the same format, same abbreviations, same symbols, same phraseology, etc. Like I said, it's a cut and paste. Rest assured that I am working on an original Boyd Barker PMDG 737 checklist and it will be finished within the next month or so. Cheers to you all!Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

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Hey BoydI know and use you work and am shocked to see it swiped.Give em Hell man.Best RegardsTed

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Thanks for that Ted! AVSIM promptly removed the most recent file.Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

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> AVSIM promptly removed the most recent fileYes, that's the right thing to do !People should refrain using material that is derived from your work without proper permission.BUMPanthonyAnthony MertonPrecision Manuals Developmenthttp://www.precisionmanuals.com

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Both of these guys are now e-mailing me claiming that they don't understand that what they did was wrong. Am I nuts or is it simple...if you cut and paste someone else's work, then you're stealing someone else's work. Right? If someone else put time, thought, and effort into creating something, then isn't it their own intellectual property whether it has a sign on it saying "Intellectual Property" or not? Right? Am I going nuts here?Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

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BoydI agree if not in a strictly legal sense then at least in moral thought.The fact that they take your work (freeware) and use it as their own and see nothing wrong with it is just another indication of the decay of the community as far as I`m concerned.Stick by your guns Boyd as there are folks that use your work and appreciate you sharing with us.Best RegardsTed

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hey anthony, i agreebut my question is to what degree would you apply what you say?as you may know the B737 NG QRH manual is also the work of somebody(or at least of boeing), and as i see it the checklists are quite similar....(allmost exact except for a left out part) and if you check the checklist provided with the NG(PMDG) you'll find no reference whatsoever about Boeing's material references...?Of course i realise that the scale of this issue is much smaller but i thought maybe it's something to consider?

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You are not nuts. They clearly derived their work from yours.Lee Hetherington (KBED)

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It IS wrong, not the major crime of our century but nonetheless wrong and insted of claiming ignorance they should be trying to remedy the situation. When I made a panel I used two things from other authors and GOT PERMISSION FIRST. This is clearly stated in my readme. [h5]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smith [h4]P M D G 7 3 7 NG[/h4]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/mineimage.jpg [h3] Realism on the horizon [h5]AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h5]

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The only thing that makes me think that is the fact that the checklist file(pdf) has no reference to Boeing though it's allmost an exact replica. Now excuse me for my ignorance but i'm not very aware of how these matters should legally be arranged.(no hard feelings whatsoever anthony, just a small 'thing that came into my head needing more clarity')I'm really not awary of procedures to arrange such matters but i'm interested in finding out.Cheers

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Hi Ted,what's wrong with a strictly legal interpretation? Distributing a copyrighted original work without permission from the copyright holder, or incorporating parts of a protected original work into one's own for distribution without seeking prior permission constitutes an infringement of copyright. An original work can be a compilation of copyrighted material, the copyright holder's rights to the compiled works or parts thereof are not affected.Simple as that.Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

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>Both of these guys are now e-mailing me claiming that they>don't understand that what they did was wrong. Am I nuts or>is it simple...if you cut and paste someone else's work, then>you're stealing someone else's work. Right? If someone else>put time, thought, and effort into creating something, then>isn't it their own intellectual property whether it has a sign>on it saying "Intellectual Property" or not? Right? Am I>going nuts here?No, you're not going nuts. You're right: if you create something, it is your intellectual property. You don't need to indicate it. Unfortunately, though, with the Internet and computers in general making it so easy nowadays to cut and paste, people are slowly losing respect for the work of others and are passing parts of if not the entire amount of other people's work as their own.I'm a college professor--I teach English (academic reading and writing skills, mostly)--and I see this problem every single term. In academic circles, this type of theft is called plagiarism, and it has become one of the biggest problems we face as instructors.In any case, you were right to defend your rights. People have to learn somehow that copying without permission or copying without indicating that the words and ideas of others are being used is WRONG.Off my soapbox now ...Joel

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Lenny, you sound like you are not aware that PMDG pays Boeing for the rights to do what they do:-) PMDG has been doing that for quite a long time, one of the reasons that they don't have any Airbus planes is that they could not come to terms with them for anything close to reasonable. I remember Rob commenting that they wanted $100,000 to allow access to the specs. As you can well imagine, PMDG would have to sell a heck of a lot of planes to recoup that $100,000 spent to get the Airbus specs.People swiping other peoples work should be shot. As I did lots of cut & paste work way back when I did a tutorial of the PMDG 777, I went to Rob first for his permission prior to putting it out. It is really just a matter of respect (forgetting the legal aspects involved which would fill many pages).Ray

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Thanks everyone. I've been in e-mail debates with both of these guys today and I'm getting real tired of them defending what they did. Thanks for your support.Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

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I am sorry that this incident has caused such a response, and, as such, have had the checklist removed from the AVSIM library.I have had quite a bit of experence with this sort of thing in the corportations I worked for. It is NOT plagerism if credit is given where credit is due. As such, I gave Boyd credit both in the AVSIM discreption and in the actual file itself. While the file relied on his original for most of the material, it contain material from PMDG for which I got copy write permission and also gave them credit in the file. This file also contained original material and modifications to some of Boyd's checklist.To use copy written material without permission is both illegal and immoral. To use intellectual material without acknowledgememt is morally wrong. I did neither. However, I am sorry for the misunderstanding and appoligize to Boyd for any hard feelings. Thus the material has been removed from AVSIM's file library and deleted from my computer.

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Hi Cuyler,Plagiarism is generally defined as passing off someone else's work as your own to a captive audience. Such is normally found in academic circles, like universities.All orignal works, whether made available to captive or non-captive audiences are subject to copyright protection. The copyright holder retains rights of distribution and/or determination of the mode thereof. >To use copy written material without permission is both illegal and immoral.To use intellectual material without acknowledgememt is morally wrong.I did neither.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

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I have PMDG's permisssion to use there material. I found no copyright associated the Boyd's material, else would have tried to contact him. However, I did give him credit, which amounts to the same thing as a footnote in academic circles. The only thing I could have done was footnote each instance of direct copy. Footnoting another author is legal and moral, but you don't want to get into that. Again I HAD PMDG'S COPYRIGHT PERMISSION WHICH I WILL BE GLAD TO SHARE WITH ANYONE. I ALSO GAVE AUTHORS CREDIT IN THE HEADING OF THIS FILE.You don't expect every author of a book who footnotes another author for use of material to get permission before inclusion in his work, do you. That does not happen in the legal or real world. Footnoting or acknowledging the original author is required. I both had copyright permission and did acknowledge Boyd as the author I used to modify the checklist. I did not pass this off as original material. I did not ask Boyd for his permission, which was a mistake, because there was no copyright notice or warning attached to the files I downloaded.So, now, tell me where I did both.

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>If you're unfamiliar with>my checklist, it is perhaps the most comprehensive FS>checklist around. It represents months of research,>full-motion flight sim time, 737 pilot interviews, etc. I really have to say that I am very much for respecting copyright and the work of others but I just downloaded your checklist only to see what this is all about. I still don

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What did you download for comparison? The offending files have been removed from the file library since early yesterday. If you compared the proper files, then there is no way you could come to the same conclusion. My DF737 Checklist is unlike anything produced elsewhere; especially anything that came with the DF737. I'm talking about duplicate format, phraseology, abbreviations, punctuation, etc...and all in the same places. That's what makes it so easy to identify someone who has simply cut and pasted my work and then tweaked it about 5-10%. Seriously, this topic seems like such a no brainer to me. I simply don't understand. Again, I am so thankful for the majority of you who agreed with my point of view. I thought I was losing it. I thought my work was free territory to anyone who wanted to make use of it. Very disheartening indeed.Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

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Cuyler, You were the one mentioned as giving credit. I'm sure he would have not have not had a problem if you had asked OR told him you were sorry insted of trying to justify your actions, what matters is that the original author felt taken advantaged of here. Even now if you look at it from his stand point I'm sure you will see it's just about respect, I know you feel like everyone is ganging up on you and I do understand that you also feel upset by this whole matter. You might be suprised at people's atittude if you humble your responce to this matter. [h5]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smith [h4]P M D G 7 3 7 NG[/h4]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/mineimage.jpg [h3] Realism on the horizon [h5]AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h5]

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>What did you download for comparison? The offending files>have been removed from the file library since early yesterday.I downloaded your file and compared it to the DF737-manual.> If you compared the proper files, then there is no way you>could come to the same conclusion. My DF737 Checklist is>unlike anything produced elsewhere; especially anything that>came with the DF737. Well, yes, the *format* is different, of course, but the content is very much the DF 737-manual.> I'm talking about duplicate format,>phraseology, abbreviations, punctuation, etc...and all in the>same places. That's what makes it so easy to identify someone>who has simply cut and pasted my work and then tweaked it>about 5-10%. I never saw "the other guys" checklist but obviously your checklist is a "short version" of the DF737-manual, something I also did when I bought the DF737. So he may have copied it from you but obviously you copied it from the DF 737-manual. I don

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I can't believe this. The checklist available from DreamFleet IS my checklist. I worked it up for Lou Betti of DreamFleet and gave it to him. That's why there are similarities. Seriously, this is offensive.I spent months building that checklist. I spent 90 minutes in a full motion 737 simulator. I interviewed 737 pilots. I studied real world 737 Ops Manuals and QRHs. I beta tested that thing to no end. It's in it's TENTH version. How on Earth can you even dream of alleging that I simply copied what's in the DF737 manual. Hold on a sec, I have to pick myself up off the floor. Where in any chapter of the DF737 Operations Manual (of which I am more than keenly aware I assure you) is there anything remotely similar to my checklist? My checklist is not a checklist per se, it's a step-by-step of what to do including speeds, ground instructions, FMC procedures, and so on. It's geared towards sim pilots, not real world pilots. It contains the things that a real pilot wouldn't need to have in front of him or her, but we might. That's what makes it unlike anything else out there...including anything that shipped with the DF737 in any of its manuals.Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

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