Corrections for PMDG FDE in FS2004

[crvm 0]

Bob, I am not saying for you not to explore what you feel is lacking in FS9, but this would apply to ALL payware aircraft correct? But you must know that once someone uses your *mod*, PMDG will not offer any support for problems they might encounter. Please don't get personal on me Bob, you will be going beyond friendly discussion and you seem like a nice guy, please don't take offence at one who does not 100% agree with you. Anyone who developes anything for flight sim will get questions-opinions that are not always very nice or the developer feels offence at, it's the by-product of the business. When I say that you do not know THIS aircraft, this is correct, this matters not how long you have been simming, flying or programming. PMDG has a man who is very capable to fix any problems with this airfile. That being said, if you want to test this out in ALL aspects of this flight model and provide the results have at it, I too have been around the block to know that just claiming something no matter what their creditials are does not mean it will be without issues. EDIT: Please don't miss-quote me Bob, I said "He does not have a clear kowledge of what effects what in this file"[h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/winglets_lg.jpg [h3] AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h3]

[Guest mmcevilley]

> That all sounds good except for one important factor, he>does not know this aircraft like the developers. He does not>have a clear kowledge of what effects what in this file,>and,why or how. OK - whatever. I'm not interested in discussion based upon unsubstantiated speculation, and I can see this discussion is quickly becoming a dead-man's spiral.-michael

[crvm 0]

Yes I agree, i'll just assume all airfiles are the exact same and go from there- [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/winglets_lg.jpg [h3] AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h3]

[kerosene31 349]

Sorry to start this :(Anyway, I am no flight dynamics expert, but importing any fde from fs2002 to 2004 seems to change things a litte. I was just curious if pmdg was looking into this or not.

[Bob Scott 7,715]

Randy; No way, Bucko--there was no mis-quote...that quote came straight out of your first post on this thread. Let me point out that there's a major difference between disagreeing with somebody on a point, and impugning their knowledge and/or abilities. You dumped twice now on what you think I know, not on what I've said or done. Let me offer that, although I did not write this air file, I very possibly *may* have better knowledge of how this air file interacts with the significantly different FS2004 FDE than the man (men?) who *did* write it--for FS2002. I know from hours of testing that the post-mod FD performs much closer to the original FS2002 specs than the un-modded FS2002 FD simply ported over to FS2004. Try it...then tell me I'm wrong. But you'd better bring some facts to the table, not "he didn't write it so he can't possibly understand it" hyperbole. Bottom line, for the second time you've not engaged here with anything of substance...but you've several times now suggested that I can't possibly know what this airfile is all about. Show me where I've erred. Demonstrate for us that the unmodified FD in FS2004 performs closer to the original FS2002 FD than my modded version. You can't, because it doesn't. You've attempted to cast a dark cloud over my knowledge, skill, and ability--not my work. On what basis do you suggest that I do not have a "clear kowledge (sic) of what effects (sic) what in this file?" Let me offer that it appears to me the designer himself may not have a clear knowledge of what affects what in the air file *in FS2004*...understandable in the absence of an SDK on this new FDE. Expertise is established by your works...the real meat you put on the table. You've offered up nothing but ungrounded hysteria here so far. Refute me with facts, or back me up, or get out of the way so we can get these dynamics fixed up right in FS9.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, D.C.

[crvm 0]

No way, Bucko--there was no mis-quote...that quote came straight out of your first post on this thread. Ok, but I was still talking about THIS AIRCRAFT'S air file. "This is one man's opinion, not to belittle anyone's efforts but messing with air files should never be done by people who do not have a complete knowledge of all aspects of the air file. " Read it again, I'm sure you can see what I am getting at. Let me point out that there's a major difference between disagreeing with somebody on a point, and impugning their knowledge and/or abilities. You dumped twice now on what you think I know, not on what I've said or done Really? Where is that?. Saying that you don't know the why or what about THIS airfile and how it WORKS with this AIRCRAFT is not casting a dark cloud over your knowledge. Bottom line, for the second time you've not engaged here with anything of substance...but you've several times now suggested that I can't possibly know what this airfile is all about. Show me where I've erred. Ah classic here, it's not up to me to prove OR disprove your claims Bob, that's for you to provide. I see you are offended easy there Bob, I will leave you to this thread and wish you much luck. [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/winglets_lg.jpg [h3] AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h3]

[bobbyjoh 11]

Bob, the new AirEd ini file took care of the problem.ThanksBob J

[bobbyjoh 11]

Hi Randy and Bob,I hope that my questions did not start any type "fued" between you guys. I understand that air files are a very touchy subject within the MSFS community. I once critized the air file on another plane development team and started WW3. To this day I know that the air file was pure BS (grin).I respect the work that PMDG did to the hilt. However, I did apply Bob's mod's to my PMDG airfile, and to my "dummy" knowledge, it has worked just as Bob said. The 737 does in fact fly with a much better AoA in FS9 about 1.5 degree nose up. I can't quantify the fuel burn yet, but it does look "in the ball park".Randy, I know that you have worked hard on the development of the PMDG NG and Brovo to you and the team. Bob Scott has added IMHO a nice little update to the FDE. I would hope that the FDE developer on the PMDG team would take the time to just take a look at what Bob did and evaluate it. Sometimes all of us can learn a little from each other, I know I sure do.Thanks to BOTH of you guys, as long as any debate helps makes the PMDG 737 even better all is good. By no means attack each other, we are all on the same team, not like some other folks that used to rock and roll on being NEGATIVE.CheersBob

[crvm 0]

I really did not mean to offend Bob, it could have come off that way but really was not my intent so I hope he does not hold it against me. I am not so proud not to say when I was wrong and I feel I spoke all the wrong words, sorry bud. Yes these type of things do bring about battles at times but I think we don't have to follow that pattern. Bob seems to be at a level that others I have seen were not, he does know a lot about airfiles. I don't use FS9 for my serious flying, it's sure pretty and all but still don't feel at home in the sim just yet. I like mods I swear! hehe, it's just I deal with other aspects like below ;)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/33585.jpg [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/winglets_lg.jpg [h3] AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h3]

[Guest ilh]

Randy, please don't take this the wrong way, but perhaps you should stop trying to be PMDG in this forum and let PMDG respond to issues like this. I think that your initial responses, although well intentioned to caution folks about messing around with things, instead squelches improvement.Maybe PMDG is addressing these issues, maybe not. How can we know? PMDG is fairly quiet these days from our perspective. I don't blame them given some of the recent forum activity, but I also don't blame people for addressing issues themselves and trying to help others.Lee Hetherington (KBED)

[crvm 0]

Now how can I not take that the wrong way Lee? If me being a very active part of not only this forum but also the beta process comes across to you as me trying to be PMDG then I don't know what to tell you. I will not stop being me for anyone including PMDG and they know this. I am like everyone else in this forum with strong opinions and helpful posts because I want to help other simmers along. I get no *Gold Stars* for helping out. The fact that I am involved in the beta process makes me more informed concerning current and future developments than the average forum member. The truth is PMDG is clear on mods including my own, they are not allowed, this thread is not for improvement as I see improvement, this comes from the makers themselfs, it's not like the situation of WELP who are onto other things and leave the mods to people such as you and I but we are not at that point with the NG, I see a few years at least for the NG. I hope I get some room to grow and learn here in the forum like everyone else, 99% of what I post is done with intentions on helping others, if this bothers the users then I can just go back to my testing and not respond at all... [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/winglets_lg.jpg [h3] AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h3]

[Bob Scott 7,715]

Randy; Not to belittle the work of others, but I wouldn't be all that anxious to showcase my membership in the PMDG beta group. Many of us here feel strongly that the beta test of the 737NG was...to put it humanely...somewhere between woefully incomplete and a stark failure. If your position is that only PMDG are allowed to improve or suggest improvement, I can't agree. A forum is for exchange of ideas, with the whole idea of improvement in mind. We help each other, and in the process take some of the load off the development team as they sort through fixing all the broken pieces that the beta team missed. In the end, I am not interested in "improvement as (you) see improvement." Your definition is yours and need not be forced upon others here. Anyway, I'd like to return to the real point of this thread, namely that the 737NG FDs do not behave as-designed in FS2004. I've offered a very specific suggestion on a fix...and heard nothing of substance as to whether the PMDG crew are even working the problem. I'd like to hear from them that this is being addressed. And, as Lee points out, you ain't PMDG--they can answer for themselves.Bob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, D.C.

[Guest ilh]

Randy, I thoroughly welcome your helping folks. I really do. I just didn't see your initial input in this thread as being helpful, but instead as hindering someone who was trying to make the flight model more consistent across FS2002 and FS2004. He was not criticizing the flight model in FS2002, but instead pointing out that FS2004 changed the rules, and perhaps PMDG was not aware of that. Instead, from my vantage point your response came across as "how dare you think you are worthy enough to touch the flight model." Given that you don't do serious flying in FS2004, are you qualified to say Bob's modifications are junk as you imply they must be because he doesn't know this airplane as much as the developers?That is really the only point I was trying to make.Lee Hetherington (KBED)

[Guest mmcevilley]

>Randy, please don't take this the wrong way, but perhaps you>should stop trying to be PMDG in this forum and let>PMDG respond to issues like this. Amen!-michael

[Bob Scott 7,715]

We still haven't heard from PMDG on this...are the flight dynamics for the 737 in FS2004 being re-addressed given the differences discovered in FD handling in the new version?I also found it interesting that the winglet -700 uses the exact same flight dynamics as the non-winglet -700...clearly the two airplanes are not aerodynamically equal.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, D.C.