Hold at present position

[Guest Darren Howie]

G'day BruceWhen you get out into the real world don't expect to be asked to hold only at fix's or aids.I have been held on several occassions when incidents have been happening going into YSSY.Normally comes up like"All aircraft inbound to Sydney please hold present position left hand 1 min patterns,report recieved".Belive me the workload goes through the roof in 5 secs flat.Enjoy the training

[brucek 38]

Hi Darren,Thanks for the real world tip! I still have lots of practical work to do, and am somewhat apprehensive about flying IR once I have the rating- just for these reasons of the unknowns! Thanks again- what do you fly into YSSY? I used to live just out of Melbourne, but wasn't flying then.Bruce.

[MadDog 353]

Bruce,I can't comment on how they do it in Europe - but in the U.S., you would NEVER be told "to hold at present position" when flying IFR. Unless the holding pattern is published, I am required to supply the following information when issuing a hold: 1) The fix to hold at 2) the direction from the fix 3) the radial, airway, bearing, etc. to hold on 4) the altitude to maintain and 5) an EFC "Expect Further Clearance" time. Example: "Cleared direct Colorado Springs, hold northeast on the COS 038 radial, maintain eight thousand, expect further clearance at 1750." ATC may occasionally "spin" aircraft for spacing; but this is accomplished with vectors... not a holding clearance.Regards,Marc

[MadDog 353]

>G'day Bruce>Normally comes up like"All aircraft inbound to Sydney please>hold present position left hand 1 min patterns,report>recieved".Yeah, that must be what happens when you "privatize" ATC... I'll bet the Airservices CEO was flying in and wanted to get to the head of the line :-).Marc

[brucek 38]

Hi Marc,Thanks- your comments (from a real controller) are very re-assuring, there's nothing like thinking the theory and the yelling CFII aren't telling me all there is to know about IR flight!As I mentioned below, I have been told by a Class Delta controller to do a 360 for spacing, which is something very different from a "hold" as defined in instrument flight. I've also been told to stay clear of the Class Delta when the F-16's are "playing" around the airport, or in SVFR, but that's not a hold either- the controller doesn't really care what I do as long as I stay out of his/her airspace.I don't know who else here are IR'd pilots (or better). I have been told by some very experienced and ATP- licensed guys that the IR is the hardest of all to get (as I'm finding out), and it's just for this same reason, you have to be able to precisely navigate to/from a fix.Thanks- it's good to hear from you again, a long time since we both did Fly!Scripts with Anthony (here of PMDG).!! Bruce.

[MadDog 353]

Hey Bruce,How ya doing my friend? Glad to see you're working on your IR - do you find that practicing with FS helps in your training?>As I mentioned below, I have been told by a Class Delta>controller to do a 360 for spacing, which is something very>different from a "hold" as defined in instrument flight. I've>also been told to stay clear of the Class Delta when the>F-16's are "playing" around the airport, or in SVFR, but>that's not a hold either- the controller doesn't really care>what I do as long as I stay out of his/her airspace.Exactly! If you're VFR, we assume that you can take care of yourself until we have time to handle you. My philosophy is that a VFR pilot got to where he's at without my help - so he can stay where he's at until I have a chance to help.>I don't know who else here are IR'd pilots (or better). I>have been told by some very experienced and ATP- licensed guys>that the IR is the hardest of all to get (as I'm finding out),>and it's just for this same reason, you have to be able to>precisely navigate to/from a fix.Yep, many pilots go ahead and get their commercial simultaneously with their instrument because the precision flying required for both certificates are very similar. The good news is that once you get your rating, you probably won't receive many holding clearances and you can probably forget everything you ever learned about flying a DME arc! The IR is particularly hard because a lot of the toughest procedures are hardly ever used day-to-day. By the way, you might want to question that eight thousand altitude assignment in my holding clearance... working in the "flat" south, I forgot how high the ground is in your neck of the woods :-).>Thanks- it's good to hear from you again, a long time since we>both did Fly!Scripts with Anthony (here of PMDG).!! It has been a while! Glad Anthony has moved on to greener pastures... and more glad he's finally getting all this VNAV stuff straightened out - I was giving him a hard time about that 2 years ago... some things never change ;-). He's helped give us a mighty fine airplane though! Take care and keep plugging away at that rating. Here's a good real-life ATC story to leave you with... N12345, Squawk Altitude. Uh, Roger approach.A minute passes... N12345, I'm still not receiving your mode-C, squawk altitude! Approach, I have a problem - I'm at eight thousand, and I'm trying to put 8-0-0-0 into the transponder; but the digits only go up to seven!True story... "the callsigns have been changed to protect the idiot".See Ya,Marc

[Guest Ian_Riddell]

"cardinal point for this to work is to have LNAV engaged God, do I feel ashamed now"Don't be ashamed, Boaz.... I tried to access the HOLD page on a real 737 today... and I didn't even get a HOLD page. The HOLD button did nothing... the button push was ignored (The aircraft was on the ground and there was no route programmed).Are all real life 737's like this? (U10.5 software by the way).Cheers.Ian.

[PeteP 2]

Neil,You don't play the French Horn by any chance do you?Pete

[Guest Darren Howie]

G'day BruceIts a small world i actually come from Melbourne but now live in Sydney flying for QF on the Dash 8.(Eastern)Mate the only way to learn is to go and have a bash and its greatfun out there punching holes in real clouds.As they say life is not a spectator sport!!All the best

[brucek 38]

Hi Marc,That's quite a story about the "squawk altitude" :) . I assume a student pilot, although one never knows !Yes, I do find that Fs helps me with IR procedures. I would never recommend it for VFR training, as it is so "out of the ####-pit" visual training, and FS can't do that well (some of this is portraying a 3D scene in 2D, and with limited peripheral "vision" in FS). I also have "IP Trainer", something that resembles FS4 more than anything (around 1993/4). It has a virtual CFII that is very unforgiving!! It's very humbling, believe me!Good to hear from you, and yes, you're right about the hold clearance altitude- 0' AGL is over 5,000' MSL in this area :) .Bruce.

[Guest neil_c]

>Neil,>You don't play the French Horn by any chance do you?>PeteUmmm, no! Mistaken identity I think. :-lol

[PeteP 2]

Yep, must be. Thanks for the reply.Pete

[brucek 38]

Interesting job you have, Darren :).I'll be "down under" again in November, although flying into YMML on UA from LAX, and no other internal flights planned for my visit so won't be ever on one of your flights, I expect. :)Bruce.