Where are all the runways at LSZH

[Guest EricL]

Hi,If I program the FMC with departure LFPG and destination LSZH, and then go to DEP/ARR and then ARR, I only get to choose between ILSII14, DILS14 and runway 14.LSZH has 3 runways : ILS 14, ILS 16 and RWY 10 (and their opposite of course).Q1 : why don't I have the choices for all the runways? NOTE : PSS does correctly shows 10, ILS 14 and ILS 16.Q2 : what are ILSII14 and DILS14 ? Well, I saw they were marked as approaches, but that is different from a STAR, so what does that mean exactly? This is of course on SU2 with AIRAC 0313.Thanks.Eric.

[Guest BernBear]

Hi Eric,I hear that's due to the PMDG SID/STAR Files being generated automatically.At www.navdata.at there is a SID/STAR file for LSZH that has all the runways as well as all the SIDs and STARs. I needed that one too, since a great deal of my PMDG flight are into and out of that airport.Hope that helpsMax (Bern, LSZB)ActiveSky 2004 Beta Team member

[Guest EricL]

>I hear that's due to the PMDG SID/STAR Files being generated>automatically.I understand that the FMC proposed runways are filtered if you have already selected a STAR. But this is not the case (there are actually no STARs for LSZH anyway, as you pointed out).I also did the return flight and was directed to takeoff from 16. Same problem, no runway 16 choice, only 14. I tried to manually input 16 in the runway field, and it worked. So, the FMC seems to know all the runways, it just does not display them.Eric.

[Guest BernBear]

Eric,Like I said, you need the updated SID/STAR file, available from www.navdata.at or just get rid of the default file for LSZH.With the SID/STAR file that is available from PMDG, the only runway that will ever show in the FMC is 14, just trust me on that, i've been there. This is due to the SID/STAR file only having an entry for 14 in the runways section.You can also just delete or rename the LSZH.txt file in the SIDSTAR folder and all runways will show.But of course if you get the new file from Navdata, you will not only have all runways, but also the corresponding SIDS and STARS, which comes in quite handy.Best regardsMax (Bern, LSZB)Active Sky 2004 Beta Team member

[Guest EricL]

>With the SID/STAR file that is available from PMDG, the only>runway that will ever show in the FMC is 14, just trust me on>that, i've been there. This is due to the SID/STAR file only>having an entry for 14 in the runways section.OK, so you are saying that even if I don't select a STAR (how would I do that anyway, there are none in the list), the runway list will be filtered anyway to only those that have STARs defined. OK, I'm willing to trust you and I'll test that this evening.So, this is a question for PMDG : is this really normal, or is this a bug?Eric.

[Guest stang]

>OK, so you are saying that even if I don't select a STAR (how>would I do that anyway, there are none in the list), the>runway list will be filtered anyway to only those that have>STARs defined. OK, I'm willing to trust you and I'll test that>this evening.>>So, this is a question for PMDG : is this really normal, or is>this a bug?Howdy Eric. The reason you only see one runway is because the DAFIF, from which the LSZH file was made from, only lists runway 14. The DAFIF is a free database of worldwide terminal procedures that was developed for the US military. As such it only contains SIDs, STARs and IAPs that are of interest to or that can be used by the military. I also further filtered out procedures that involve runways shorter than 4500 feet, about the shortest runway the 737 can safely land on, and those that involve a procedure turn since the FMC currently does not do them. This unfortunately leaves a bunch of civilian procedures not included in the basic package I provide. But even so, 1737 airports having 2745 SIDs, 1385 STARs and 7772 IAPs is a good base to start from I think. I would like to provide a complete package but I do not have the money to buy a complete digital database from a real world navdata provider. Now as for only one runway being listed on the FMC screen. That is not a bug. If you look at the LSZH file in the RNWS section you will see only RNW 14 listed. This is because there are procedures only for runway 14. If you want other runways listed you can add them in this section. The runways numbers will then show on the screen but still will not have any procedures attached to them but you can add procedures yourself. I wrote a tutorial on how to write procedures and version two is available for download from the avsim library. Or you can, as was suggested, download a file that someone else has written for LSZH.I hope this helps.Terry

[Guest BernBear]

Terry,Thanks for the additional input.Let me just mention that it's still rather odd that only 14 is listed. 14/32 is the shorter of the two main runways at LZH. 16/34 is almost 1400 ft longer than 14/32 at 12154 ft.14 and 16 both have ILS, requiring no procedure turns for landing. So, IMHO, at least 16 should be in the DAFIF data as well, weird that it isn't10/28 is the shortest runway pair at 8147 ft, still useable for a 737, but presently without instrument approaches, so I'm not surprised it's missing in DAFIF. 32 and 34 used to be only departure runways, there were no approaches from the South prior to this summer. ILSes for 28, 32 and 34 are planned, since political difficulties with Germany require the airport to also allow approaches from the south. Presently 32 and 34 will be used for visual approaches in the morning in good weather, in order to not exceed the limit of approaches over Germany that the German government has illegally forced on Switzerland.Best regards,Max (Bern, LSZB)Active Sky 2004 Beta Team member

[Guest EricL]

>Howdy Eric. The reason you only see one runway is because the>DAFIF, from which the LSZH file was made from, only lists>runway 14. ...>Now as for only one runway being listed on the FMC screen. >That is not a bug. If you look at the LSZH file in the RNWS>section you will see only RNW 14 listed. This is becauseOK, I understand that. So you say that the FMC gets its list of runways for a given airport from the SIDSTAR file (and not from another exhaustive source). Does that mean that you get no runway at all if you try go some place where there is no SIDSTAR file?I know, I could easily try myself, but I'm currently in flight and I don't want to reprogram the FMC at the moment :-)Eric.PS: I have downloaded the LSZH file at Navdata (thanks Stephan for this site) and all is right at Zurich now, what I didn't doubt a single second :-)

[Guest mpauli]

Sali MaxI think I can explain why there is only runway 14 in the dafif database. When the US military made that list of approaches they had to choose a runway which is most often used for landings, with was of course rwy14 bofore mister Leuenberger and these idiots of german politicians decided to make the new regulations.Talking about the best runway for an approach: It dependes on many different factors such as wind (rwy28 would be the best since you have westwind 75% of the time at LSZH) but the Approach on 28 is more difficult (only DME, and 3.5% or so glide path). RWY 16/34 is the longest but if you Land from the south, with the displaced touch down point you have to taxi for a long time and you block the flow! And forget about rwy10. You have that many obstacles on the final you would need about 4.5%-5.0% glide path for you terrain clearence! Its not impossible but only in very weather conditions (Bise) and a separation time on final of over 6 minutes which would lead to a breakdown of the whole system!BtW: Nothing against the programmer of the LSZH SID/STAR on www.navdata.at but it is not the correct procedure at all. In fact YOU CAN NOT PROGRAM THE PROCEDURE RIGHTNOW because some very important parts are missing in the PMDG SID/STAR program language such as ordering a right or left turn! I don't know why they have added things that are only used very seldom and forgot basic stuff like that. All the SID/STAR programmers hope that they will add it to the 800/900 version...I hope that makes things clearer to you...Gruess us Z

[Guest stang]

>OK, I understand that. So you say that the FMC gets its list>of runways for a given airport from the SIDSTAR file (and not>from another exhaustive source). Does that mean that you get>no runway at all if you try go some place where there is no>SIDSTAR file?No. When you set the departure or arrival airport the FMC will use the runways listed in the procedure file and look no further. If there is no procedure file then the FMC will default to using the runways listed in the wpNavAPT.txt file from the AIRAC cycle. RegardsTerry

[Guest EricL]

>No. When you set the departure or arrival airport the FMC>will use the runways listed in the procedure file and look no>further. If there is no procedure file then the FMC will>default to using the runways listed in the wpNavAPT.txt file>from the AIRAC cycle. OK, it's clear now. I still think the FMC should not filter runways as long as no SID or STAR has been selected. It should act as if there was no file in this case. It would workaround the problem with all the SID STAR files that don't have all runways defined.In summary, I think it should act this way:- no runway or SID/STAR selected : show all runways and all SID/STARs- one runway selected : filter SID/STAR for this runway- one SID/STAR selected : filter runways for this SID/STARWhat do you think?Eric.

[Guest mpauli]

Hi EricThat is correct. That is the way it should work. We will probably see this in the 800/900 update. (I at least hope so...)CheersMartin

[Guest AST]

>>BtW: Nothing against the programmer of the LSZH SID/STAR on>www.navdata.at but it is not the correct procedure at all. In>fact YOU CAN NOT PROGRAM THE PROCEDURE RIGHTNOW because some>very important parts are missing in the PMDG SID/STAR program>language such as ordering a right or left turn! I don't know>why they have added things that are only used very seldom and>forgot basic stuff like that. All the SID/STAR programmers>hope that they will add it to the 800/900 version...>>I hope that makes things clearer to you...>>>Gruess us Z

[Guest AST]

OK, so here we go:http://www.stho.ch/fs/files/PMDG/LSZH.txtThis LSZH.txt SID/STAR file includes the following STARs: ILS14 ILS16 VORDME28 VORDME34. Moreover I used some dummy fix points to force a left turn for some of the departures on RNW 16 10 and 28. Sometimes I had a strange line drawn in the ND but usualy the plane follows the fix points. But don't blame me if it doesn't ;) .Cheers,Andreas

[Guest mpauli]

Sali AndreasThat's the best package for LSZH I've seen till now! I made some test flights. It's almost perfect. I think with the given possibilities it's the best we can get. Thanks for the work...Merci vill mal (assuming you speak swiss german ;-) )Martin