Help needed, please...KCLE

[Guest sj3]

Hi. I was hoping that someone could check to see if vor/loc can capture runway 24L at KCLE. I just fly right by it! I'm doing a flight from KCVG to KCLE, using the TVT transition to the KEATN2 arrival to the DILS24L approach to 24L. Everything goes great, but when I'm a few miles from the runway extension line, I hit vor/loc on the AP (coming from LNAV/VNAV. I'm at about 2000 ft. FMC is fully loaded w/my arrival/runway plans. Both nav radios were tuned to 109.9 and 238 entered in to the course window on the MCP. I'm wondering if I just have a navaid error (fmcwp or sid/star, don't know which) or if I'm using the AP incorrectly. I just right by the localizer! Thanks so much in advance for any assistance. I'm running SU-3 with FS9. The vor/loc light stays on but no attempt to intercept is made.sj MantelKEWR

[simon2 0]

I have just captured the Localiser at around 10DME and 3000ft to 24L at KCLE and GS alive between 8 and 9 DME with default fs9 scenery.Simonhttp://homepage.ntlworld.com/simon.butler2...usefulfiles.htm

[Guest sj3]

I wonder what I'm doing wrong then? I'm using FSGenesis 38m mesh for the entire usa and also the current us landclass file from them (Justin). I must be maybe missing a step in button-pusing, but I wonder what? You used 109.9, right? Basically, vnav active, lnav active, both nav radios set, cmdA active, runway heading dialed in the course window on the MCP, approaching the localizer from 90 degrees (perpendicular), the localizer is clearly shown (as a runway extension line) on my ND. Then I hit vor/loc and wait and she flies right by it. Any idea where I'm screwing up?Thanks much,sj MantelKEWR

[Guest tmetzinger]

>I wonder what I'm doing wrong then? I'm using FSGenesis 38m>mesh for the entire usa and also the current us landclass file>from them (Justin). I must be maybe missing a step in>button-pusing, but I wonder what? You used 109.9, right? >Basically, vnav active, lnav active, both nav radios set, cmdA>active, runway heading dialed in the course window on the MCP,>approaching the localizer from 90 degrees (perpendicular), the>localizer is clearly shown (as a runway extension line) on my>ND. Then I hit vor/loc and wait and she flies right by it. >Any idea where I'm screwing up?>>Thanks much,>>sj Mantel>KEWR>Try a couple of things...first, intercept it at 45 degrees or less.second, let us know if the localizer ID and freq is showing up on your PFD (the attitude indicator) and you're getting the localizer and glidepath deviation indicators on the PFD as well. If you're not getting those, then your nav radio isn't picking up the station.I'll flight check it later today.

[Guest sj3]

Thanks. I'll give that a go. I definitely was not intercepting at 45 or less and I'll check the PFD more closely.sj MantelKEWR

[Guest sj3]

I had a beautiful landing (CAT III/ILS) last night in to KCLE. It looks like I couldn't grab the localizer before because I was coming in to it at too sharp an angle. Once I creatively modified my STAR, I could get back to the runway heading at a much smaller angle, which worked like a charm.The only thing I can't figure out is why FSBuild2 would have sent me that way, KCVG to KCLE. The planned route (from its database was: KCVG-FFO-APE-TVT-KEATN2-DILS24L. However, it looks like the IAP for KEATN2 (EZE) is only a few nm from the threshold and the angle you use to turn on to the approach is quite steep.Thanks a million for the patient support!sj MantelKEWR

[ErnieAlston 33]

>The only thing I can't figure out is why FSBuild2 would have sent >me that way, KCVG to KCLE. The planned route (from its database >was: KCVG-FFO-APE-TVT-KEATN2-DILS24L. However, it looks like the >IAP for KEATN2 (EZE) is only a few nm from the threshold and the >angle you use to turn on to the approach is quite steep.Can you explain what you mean by this 'IAP for KEATN2'.As far as I can tell, the last waypoint for the KEATN2 STAR is 'KEATN' which is about 30 nm from KCLE. The fsbuild2 output for this seems to match.So can you explain how you ave proceeded from KEATN to the 'steep angle' for the apporoach ?Regards.Ernie.

[Guest sj3]

Ernie: First, I manually entered the waypoints provided by FSBuild2 into the 737NG's FMC. The waypoints were: FFO, APE, TVT, KEATN2. I told the FMC I wanted the TVT transition to the KEATN2 STAR. When I looked at the ND's PLAN view, the waypoint after TVT was EZE. I didn't think KEATN2 was an actual waypoint, but rather a name for a group of waypoints representing an arrival route. EZE is 8.4 nm from the runway threshold according to the charts I looked at from myairplane.com. So, the line from TVT to EZE is basically north and a little east. From that line, the plan looks like it's asking the pilot to from that heading to the runway heading of 238, or southwest. That's why I called it a rather steep turn, basically from a heading of about 10degrees (TVT to EZE) to 238 degrees. I am very sure I'm not taking advantage, yet, of FSBuild's more advanced features. Basically, it seems that with this flight plan, if I hit vor/loc on my way from TVT to EZE, it won't intercept. The reason I called EZE my Initial Approach Point is that it was the first waypoint on the approach heading to the runway. There was not an individual waypoint named KEATN2 on my nav display when stepping through the flight plan. By the way, it was really cool flying right over downtown Cleveland right over the top of Burke Lakefront airport! I rather enjoyed that plus with brand new water textures, Lake Erie sure looked sweet.Thanks much,sj MantelKEWR

[simon2 0]

It isnt really a direct route from KEATN (the end of the star) to EZE. The plate says to leave KEATN on a hdg of 340 initially and then expect vectors to the final approach. KEATN to BRUNS is 340 and then you will need a downwind and base leg on to the approach. Expect to be at about 10000ft at KEATN. Or route KEATN 10000 ACO24 7000 CFG64 4000 and turn base 290deg descend to 3000 to intercept before EZE.Simon

[Guest sj3]

Ok, I think I am obviously doing something wrong the way I enter FSBuild's output in to the FMC because I'm ending up with an "impossible" turn on to final. If someone doesn't mind, could they take a peek at the flight plan in the NG? I specifically enter KCVG (36R), FFO, APE, TVT, KEATN2, KCLE (DILS24L) in to the FMC, using DIRECT in every case. The waypoints are entered directly in the RTE page, but KEATN2/24L are entered from the DEP/ARR page. This results in the waypoints within KEATN2 to show up on the Plan display on the ND. Using FSBuild2, I only ask for a route from KCVG 36L to KCLE's 24L, i.e. I specify the runways I'd like and let FSBuild do its thing. I fly low, but not slow!sj MantelKEWR

[ErnieAlston 33]

>Ok, I think I am obviously doing something wrong the way I>enter FSBuild's output in to the FMC because I'm ending up>with an "impossible" turn on to final. If someone doesn't>mind, could they take a peek at the flight plan in the NG? I think simon's suggestion is on the right track.If you want to intercept the approach course at a more reasonable angle you will have to set yourself up to join the approach from a smaller angle.Okay if you are coming from the south at hdg 340, and the final approach course is 237 for ILS 24L at EZE then your intercept angle will be 103 degrees, too large for a final turn, we agree.I would think you would not want an angle greater than 60 degrees. So you will have to position your aircraft so that you approach that final approach course at a 60 degree angle or less.Simon's 'downwind', and 'base leg' suggestion with a final dogleg turn to intercept the final approach course would work perfectly. But unless you are familiar with how to join a standard traffic pattern you will find this difficult.What I suggest in this case is something a little easier to start with...If you look at the KCLE ILS 24L chart you will see another IAF (CXR). From KEATN go direct to CXR. Then depart CXR on R-289 towards the final approach course (as depected on the chart). Than then sets you up to intercept the approach course at 52 degrees, a much more reasonable final turn.Something else to consider, try the GPS approach to 24L. The IAF for that is SUPME, just west of CXR. But you can manually plug in the waypoints for the GPS approach in the FMS and let the autopilot fly LNAV for the GPS approach.Just enter 'CXR SUPME RILKE SORDE'.You could do this in Fsbuild2 if you wanted to.KCVG FFO APE TVT KEATN CXR SUPME RILKE SORDE KCLEFrom the GPS approach you can then transition from the non-precision GPS approach to the precision ILS approach once you have picked up the Localizer.In the real world as you apporoached KEATN, Air Traffic Control would likely provide you radar vectors to set you up to intercept the Localizer for 24L ILS at a 30 degree angle or less. Without some assistance from ATC, you will have to find a way on your own to get your aircraft positioned at a reasonable angle to join the approach.Regards.Ernie.

[Guest tmetzinger]

>>Ok, I think I am obviously doing something wrong the way I>>enter FSBuild's output in to the FMC because I'm ending up>>with an "impossible" turn on to final. If someone doesn't>>mind, could they take a peek at the flight plan in the NG? >>I think simon's suggestion is on the right track.>>If you want to intercept the approach course at a more>reasonable angle you will have to set yourself up to join the>approach from a smaller angle.>>Okay if you are coming from the south at hdg 340, and the>final approach course is 237 for ILS 24L at EZE then your>intercept angle will be 103 degrees, too large for a final>turn, we agree.The ILS RWY 24 approach can only legally be flown two ways: with radar vectors, or by using CXR as the IAF. If you use CXR, you've got a 52 degree angle to intercept the final approach course. Doable, but not pretty.One thing I do to "self-vector" is to add a PBD waypoint in front of the first fix of the approach to give me time/distance to turn.Here's how to do it for CLE when you're coming from KEATN. Since KEATN is SE of the field, you want to pick a waypoint to the NORTHeast of your first approach point. Let's use EZE in this case, although you could choose NATON or CAASS or even FUVEN if you want a long ride.You have to do a little math here. Take the inbound course (237), calculate the reciprocal (57), and then add or subtract 30 degrees depending on where you are starting from. In this case, since we want the point to be northeast, we'll add the 30 degrees. So what we do is create a waypoint 10 miles from EZE at 87 degrees. That gives us time to make a turn and sequence inbound using LNAV and have a decent intercept for the localizer.How do you do it on the FMC? on the LEGS page, select EZE using the left LSK next to it, and then type in 087/10, so your scratchpad looks like :EZE087/10.This is a PLACE (EZE) BEARING (087) DISTANCE(10) waypoint, or PBD. Now just press the line select key above EZE to insert it into the path, and it will be added as EZE01... you may have to close discos. Delete waypoints between KEATN and EZE01, and you will end up with a route that looks like so (shown on a FliteStar chart). You can play with the distance depending on your speed, so that you end up with enough distance to intercept.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/59070.jpg

[Guest sj3]

Hi. I just wanted to say thank you for the kind and patient assistance offerred here. Especially to the forum managers who allowed me to get flight-planning help here, maybe not specific to the beautiful PMDG 737NG. It's an honor to participate here.sj MantelKEWR