Please explain this HOLD to me

[barryward12345 0]

Here is the approach chart for an NDB approach to RW16 at Penticton , Canada. Basically, you cross the first NDB (YYF) , turn to 340 and head outbound until you cross the second NDB (UNT) , do a procedure turn and head inbound on 160.But , there is a clockwise HOLD at the first NDB (YYF) --- why is this clockwise? If it was an anti-clockwise hold it would feed straight into the outbound 340 leg of the Approach.Am I missing something?

[michal 44]

Hold is usually associated with the missed approach procedure and as such has nothing to do with the outbound leg. Not sure why you even make a connection between the outbound leg and hold - there is none, besides flying the procedure turn is not the only way to fly this approach. In this case the diagram shows the right turn hold - which is the standard hold turn.Michael J.

[Guest Lobaeux4]

Without seeing the rest of the approach plate, it's kind of hard to tell what exactly is going on, but, the racetrack is on the protected airspace side of the approach. Just looking quickly at the plate, you can see the terrain on the right hand side. Missed approach instructions say to go to ON and hold. The procedure is actually an ICAO 45-180 procedure track, with a racetrack procedure also. And actually you're not going out to the second NDB (UNT) and turning, you're going out to the 10DME off of XYF loc and the performing the 45-180 procedure track. Looks like an interesting approach.Lobaeux

[barryward12345 0]

>Hold is usually associated with the missed approach >procedure and as such has nothing to do with the outbound >leg. Not sure why you even make a connection between the >outbound leg and hold - there is none, besides flying the >procedure turn is not the only way to fly this approach. In >this case the diagram shows the right turn hold - which is >the standard hold turn. >>Michael J. AS far as I can make out , the missed approach hold is at another NDB (ON) . So what is the hold at YYF for? It seems to me that it is a hold at the entrance to the approach - amybe for when the approach is busy??. You enter the approach via 340 -- so with the hold as shown , you would not come out of the hold with an easy entry to 340.Am I making any sense?

[Guest]

Hey,YYF is in moutainous terrain and below radar coverge. ATC may have you hold at the beacon till the IFR aicraft in front of you cancels his IFR or reports down and clear. Maybe you'll be put in the hold for an IFR departure. The hold is on the protected side of the approach due to the mountaneous terrain.If you're in the hold and subsequently cleared for the approach, you can fly beacon outbound in a "racetrack pattern." To do that, just fly outbound on a heading of 340 (correcting for winds) for whatever period of time you deem necessary to remain in protected space. Essentially all you're doing is paralling the loc outbound -you don't need to turn to join the loc and fly it outbound. When the time is up, turn right to join the loc or an inbound track of 160 to the beacon if you're shooting the NDB approach. You don't need to do the 45 degree procedure turn. Basically all you're doing is flying a hold with an extended leg.

[barryward12345 0]

OK - that makes sense to me . Thanks for that explanation . But 1 more question -- (as I am not a real life pilot) -- if the approach chart shows the published procedure to include a procedure turn, how come you can (are permitted) to fly the procedure you described ( basically just extending the outbound leg of the YYF hold pattern and then turning back to 160) Interesting stuff!! :)

[Guest]

It's just the way it's done. As long as you're in protected airspace you're ok.Only time you'd shoot the 45/180 procedure turn is if you were cleared direct to the YYF beacon for the "full procedure approach", and you were approaching the beacon from an angle that makes it possible to join the localizer outbound without, how can I put this, having to make too massive a turn.

[Chris_CYWG 0]

Without seeing the real and actual approach plate, only pieces of it, I would have to say that between the 2 NDBS there is a HUGE altitude stepdown out of the mountains. The "hold" portion is probably actually a shuttle descent pattern to get the aircraft down to altitude comfortably. Without seeing the actual plate though it is impossible to tell as the plate will indicate the profile of the descent.. I'll try and dig one up and find out for sure.Chris

[barryward12345 0]

Yes -- there is a large altitude drop. Not so much between the NDNs (about 1000') but after the procedure turn is completed. Even then, the circling minima is about 3500' - about 2000' higher than the runway.