Two America West pilots arrested for being drunk

[Guest rcritz]

Another thing that some folks are missing:Peter's (:( is true only for criminal proceedings. Violation of an FAR is NOT a criminal proceeding, though those can follow. It's an administrative (i.e. civil) proceeding and the standard and burden of proof is quite different.While there is almost always room for wiggle and interpretation in administrative proceeding, FAR 91.17 is quite specific and leaves no room for mitigating circumstances. If the pilots' BAC was as reported, they violated 91.17(a)(4). There's no room for interpretation on that. What's left for interpretation is whether they also violated 91.13 (probably, based on existing case law) and America West's Ops Specs regarding time between drink and fly, if there is any additional requirement contained therein.

[Guest]

KathyPilots are like any other people, they are not perfect Gods. Yes they do have a heavy responsibility but they are not alone in that many other professions do too.I do not know the facts behind this particular case. Did the pilots (two of them)knowingly take control of an aircraft while under the influence of drink or did they drink the previous evening and believe themselves to be clear of alcohol the following morning?If they took control of an airline knowing they had alcohol in their systems then they should be severely punished and maybe even imprisoned.On the otherhand if they believed that they had complied with the rules of 8 hours bottle to throttle and believed that they were clear of the effects of alcohol ie they genuinely had no idea that they had traces of alcohol in their system then everyone needs to take heed and lessons need to be learnt.I personally think their should be guidelines as to how much alcohol a pilot can drink 8 hours before his flight. One glass of wine or a bottle of Vodka?How many of these pilots carry testing equiptment around to say "Oh Im okay as I only have .039 when the limit is .040.My own feeling is that no level of alcohol is acceptable and that neither is 8 hours bottle to throttle.While I find the idea of one rogue pilot possible I find it hard to believe that two seperate individuals who both had impeccable records would both be so irresponsible.i would like the facts before I made a judgement and those facts wont be through the press or heresay.Do you remember the slating MSFS had after sept 11, was that factual press reporting or coloured headline grabbing.As for best buddies I meant that when you are away from home in foreign countries you will spend long periods of time together. Not everyone but most people are sociable creatures and like to stay with what they know or who they know.Because pilots are like any other people warts and all rather than being perfect beings, training regulations and random checks as well as education are needed to avoid situations like what this appears to be.My fear is that the pilots will be made the scapegoats rather than really looking into how this situation arose and how to best make sure that it cant happen again.People will pass the buck.A vast amount of money is spent on aircraft systems to protect pilots from their own limitations and imperfections surely one is to have a system that will not allow the aircraft to start unless both pilots are alcohol free.Peter

[Guest]

Hi again Peter.This will be my last response in this thread - I need to start preparing food for the 4th.Peter, yes the FAR's state 8 hours however some airlines have extended that to 12. Although the amount of alcohol a person drinks before they go over the limit is dependant on body size and type - everyone (regardless of size or type) eliminates alcohol from the body at a fixed rate - that is a biological fact. So, yes they could have had a heavy night - VERY heavy I might add - and still exceed the .04 limit of the FARs after 8 hours (most likely not 12 hours though). Gee, how come I know this? They should have known it too. NO, they did know it and that was poor judgment.Finally, the "system" you suggest that will prevent engine start if over the limit....it already exists. It is a wondrous system of neurons and synaptic functions and is the origin of judgment - you know what this is. :) An external system, I believe, is not practical(or acceptable) - for many reasons.Take care - Happy 4th (if you celebrate), have a nice weekend if not.

[Guest mikehaska]

Kathy- Your posts are so dead on it hurts! Especially the one a few posts up. :-)

[Guest]

"so dead on it hurts':) Thank you Mike. Its the kind of pain you will forget. :-lol

[Guest]

Well, that about wraps that up.....Timothy(Save me some patato salad Kathy, all we are getting today on board is a muffin, OJ and Cinnabone)

[Guest]

"Save me some patato salad Kathy"Done Timothy! And, I'll add some homemade baked beans (cooking now)."all we are getting today on board is a muffin, OJ and Cinnabone"Today, of all days, I would think you desrve at least a nice two-step.See ya,Kathy.Born to Fly.My Dad, Me, My Son.____________________http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d1fa4366cb4d8c6.jpg

[Guest]

Don't need baked beans, woke up in "Bean Town" (who has the best fireworks) The joys of being senior and schedule where I want to go, when I want to go....Heading back home today....Timothy

[Guest Niels_C]

Celestial Salutations,I fall in somewhere between Kathy's and Peter S.' viewpoints.It is a great responsibility to control a jetliner and you shouldtreat it as such. Sometime last year National TV here in Denmarkaired a secretly filmed documentary on BA pilots habits when abroad,mostly spain. I didn't look good.OTOH, this is not the Inquisition, so there is little reason topotentially fry people without possesion of facts. Unfortunatelythat is not a guideline observed by all here in the Avsim fora,which I have felt once or twice already ;(.At any rate, even if you drink and sim at least wait some beforeyou get behind the weel.-Niels C.

[Guest]

NielsI think some here have an over idealistic view of pilots and airline pilots who are no more than a cross section of any group of people.Billions are spent protecting Pilots from themselves in flight yet they are expected to be some sort of saints in their time off before flights.Thats not what I see on my travels and when that is accepted then maybe something concrete can be done with better guidelines and safegaurds to make sure that pilots with alcohol or drugs in their systems are not at the controls of airliners.Peter

[Guest Joshieca]

Ok, I know this is bad...but...... :)

[Guest]

:-)Not American West Im sure but a pretty typical sight around pilot Hotels ;-)(only joking before I get leapt on again)Peter