The Issue of Freeware Quality

[Guest]

Hi Bob,Actually, I wasn't referring to the quantity of freeware vs commercial releases. In that regard I wholly agree with you: Freeware vastly outnumbers commercial works in the FS community and always will. Newcommers and some established oldtimers will always produce vast quantities of small (and on rare occations large) projects for free. Its the quality and the size of works that is in question.The argument in this thread is one about perception: quality of works comparing freeware vs commercial. The vastly growing perception in this community is that freeware works simply can't stand up to the onslaught of high-quality commercial entities. My argument is that history doesn't show this in the least: Free Software is often much more highly regarded in its quality than many commercial works. Free Software has no inherient limitation in project size either as history shows.Its the community and culture that determines the future of FS addons, not the complexity of the projects. If there was a true free software desire in this community, tools to enable the infrastructure to support and sustain such an effort would have been established long ago (or even in the works now). None of that is happening here because the culture doesn't want or support it (both end-user and developer communities). There is nothing inherently wrong with this either: its simply a reflection of this FS culture.Good talking with you Bob.Talk care,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest]

Hi Rob,I fully respect your opinion here agree with parts of it as well. But the argument that projects simply get to large or complex to support Free development doesn't fit with the realities of free works (in other communities). Sure, on an individual basis, some large projects become way to much for one person to handle. So what alleviates that pressure when a developer turns commercial? Team work (and pay). Splitting up a project into small manageable and highly organized chunks is the only way to tackle large projects: as a commercial or free developer.There is a vast community of free developers that use such organization tools to work on huge projects all over the internet. This includes other types of end-user game communities such as: Quake, UT, Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights - to name a few. From your remarks I'll assume you haven't seen the complexity of Total Conversions for any of these games. Some of these projects include vast libraries of custom artwork, code and models. Most of the TC projects dwarf the efforts of one high-quality FS aircraft release in sheer hours of production. And the vast majority of these (of which there are many) are completely free works.I don't want to turn this against commercial entities either. While I personally don't support or work within such an environment for my hobbies, I have absolutely nothing against those who do. Again, it simply comes down to community and culture. I don't believe either is inherently wrong, regardless of my own preferences.Take care,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest]

you know as I think about this topic, it occurs to me that I've replaced my only payware with freeware at this point, that is..my design tools.ASD was my mainstay for years, but I've now replaced it with airport and fssc...freeware.FSDS was my first cad-like modeller, payware. Now replaced by a better product, GMAX freewareCheers,Bob B

[Guest]

Indeed, that is great to hear you are supporting the free developers in all ways you are (and always have I might add). The quality of the tools you just mentioned are extremely high as well from my experience (at some point in the future I'd like to check out FSSC more than I have though).Now if the free devoted sim community desired to implement the infrastructure to support large projects (things like online source and version controls, online bug tracking, etc), I think the sim community would greatly benefit. Maybe a project for AVSIM at some point, sort of like SourceForge but sim geared? Interesting idea at the least.Take care,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[ErnieAlston 33]

>Hi Rob,>I fully respect your opinion here agree with parts of it as well. >But the argument that projects simply get to large or complex to >support Free development doesn't fit with the realities of free >works (in other communities). Its pretty clear the crux of Tim's point was strictly within the FlightSim community. Comparing the FlightSim community to other communities is like comparing Apples to Oranges.Clearly it is more difficult and more time consuming to to develop a high quality product for FS2002 than it was for FS98. There is a clear gap between payware and freeware quality in particular in the areas of Scenery and Panel development. This is fact.No freeware has come close to what has been done with the PSS, PIC, and DF panels. Freeware scenery has clearly dropped off in part because the default scenery is fairly good now, there are less scenery holes to fill. In FS98 there were many opportunities to make an airport not in the sim. >Sure, on an individual basis, some large projects become way to much >for one person to handle. So what alleviates that pressure when a >developer turns commercial? Team work (and pay). Splitting up a >project into small manageable and highly organized chunks is the >only way to tackle large projects: as a commercial or free developer.There's more to it than that though. Commercial developers can contract out work they don't have the skill to do themselves, freeware developers cannot. Sure a freeware developer 'might' find others with the skill in some cases, but in many cases they do not. Clearly the is a reason why there are no freeware Navigational displays or FMS's for FS2000 or FS2002. That skill is simply beyond the grasp of freeware developers. The Commercial developers have had this skill since FS98. The sophisticated panels are clearly the domain of Commercial developers. The only freeware that has even come close to an FMS/ND has been SquawkBox, and Navdash, and both of those were not that sophisticated and developed for FS98.For a freeware developer to do the same things as PSS, and DF would simply a take very very long time, if at all. Most freeware developers are doing it in their spare time, while Commercial developers are doing it as their business or their living. That makes a big difference.>There is a vast community of free developers that use such >organization tools to work on huge projects all over the >internet. >This includes other types of end-user game communities such as: >Quake, UT, Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights - to name a few. From your >remarks I'll assume you haven't seen the complexity of Total >Conversions for any of these games. Some of these projects include >vast libraries of custom artwork, code and models. Most of the TC >projects dwarf the efforts of one high-quality FS aircraft release >in sheer hours of production. And the vast majority of these (of >which there are many) are completely free works.Its a different community, those games require top notch development tools to produce like 3DStudioMax, etc,etc.The FlightSim community for the most part doesn't have an abundance the kind of talent that is available to the gaming community. I would suspect most of these game developers wouldn't waste their time on anything as boring and trivial as a FlightSim panel or scenery.The reason for the abundance of talent in the gaming community is that most of them either are or aspire to be professional game developers.The FlightSim add-on market is rather small, only a small handfull can earn enough to do it for a living unlike the gaming community. And our community doesn't exactly encourage people to develop add-ons Professionally. Too many see it as someone making money off their hobby.RegardsErnie.

[Guest]

As has been already said, if I had to put a finger on the thing that links the highest quality add-ons is that a team of experienced and dedicated people have worked on them. When you look at it from that perspective I honestly don't think that you can distinguish between the highest quality payware and freeware items. There are items from both camps that have unique angles to them, not by virtue of how much they cost but by who's worked on them.There is one thing that you could say about freeware items though. A developer for CFSx/FSx does not spring fully formed from the loins of Zeus! Over the years you get people who've never done any add-ons ever who come to the hobby, some end up producing amazing things in time (and some of these do it remarkably quickly!) and others drift off. The fact that not every single freeware add-on is an amazing piece of work technically and artistically simply reflects that. I don't see it as a stick to beat freeware with, rather it is a symptom of a developing and dynamic community.The only thing I've genuinely noticed changing in the last year regarding payware is that there no longer seems to be any payware coming out that are *really* appalling. A year or two ago there were some really bad payware products floating around. Maybe this is what's been noticed, not a raising of the bar by payware - but rather a weeding out of the type of products that really should never have been on sale in the first place.Have funFinn

[Guest]

Hi Ernie,"Comparing the FlightSim community to other communities is like comparing Apples to Oranges."Unfortunately, I don't agree. I've long been involved in many game communities to further enjoy my hobbies (and skills). I've been involved in large and small projects for many of the communities outside FS, as well as many small personal and a few large group projects within the sim community. The skill, work, time investment, dedication, etc in other communities I find no different than here. The focus and end result is different of course, but the bits and pieces are remarkably identical: textures, models, code or script, etc."No freeware has come close to what has been done with the PSS, PIC, and DF panels."And I can see no reason why this is so - outside of culture and community. If the will was there to create a thriving free infrastructure (as is done in many other communities), there surely would have been comparable releases from the free community by now. Its simply the culture that hasn't grown to feed such a desire in this community - yet if ever. But large, complex projects are tackled by free communities every single day."Commercial developers can contract out work they don't have the skill to do themselves, freeware developers cannot."There is no reason why they cannot. As a matter of fact, I've been inducted into a few projects by those who "contracted" me from whatever else I was doing at the time - Fly!Ontario a prime example. They simply asked in a forum post and I accepted. If it were more formalized with specific forums and the like setup to petition developers for projects (like many other communities), it would be commonplace here as well. But thats not the culture in the sim community."Clearly the is a reason why there are no freeware Navigational displays or FMS's for FS2000 or FS2002. That skill is simply beyond the grasp of freeware developers."I agree that there is no reason why no groups have tackled such projects: its the lack of organization to get the interested parties together - and lack of planning and resources to organize such a project.I have to highly and strongly disagree that the skills are not present in the free community, however. I've come to highly respect the extreme talent that floats around this community more than any other (which is probably why I've made AVSIM my general home). A very few examples: Chris Wallace, Allen Kriesman, Martin Wright, etc. The list could go on and on... All extremely highly talented coders focused on the free track. Yet, the community and culture has not been fostered to bring bright people together for large projects."For a freeware developer to do the same things as PSS, and DF would simply a take very very long time, if at all. Most freeware developers are doing it in their spare time, while Commercial developers are doing it as their business or their living. That makes a big difference."Again, its more than proven that project size has nothing to do with commercial or free works. There are countless thousands of projects out there that dwarf or match commercial works in their size, complexity and need for organization. Yet they are produced and worked upon every day. Again, its simply not the culture here to foster such an environment - yet if ever. For one developer, I couldn't agree more - it'd be impossible. But no large projects are ever tackled by a single individual (ok, a few are but very rarely: Derek Smart, Chris Sawyer, Austin Meyer, etc). Its the community driven resources to bring authors together and provide the infrastructure for them to work efficiently that enables large scale free projects: in any game genre or other software environment."Its a different community, those games require top notch development tools to produce like 3DStudioMax, etc,etc."I've worked in a variety of these communities for a long while: the tools are no different than here (of which I've also been part of for the past four years). A good editor, IDE or language tool, a good set of photo tools, modeling software (such as gMax), organization tools such as forums, bugzilla, VCS like version tracking, etc. And a good wallop of custom small tools written and shared between developers. But most important: excellent support from the main game developer - something that is indeed a huge lack here but is worked around daily by the bright minds in this community. Again, its all about community and culture: and not just from end-users or end-user developers, but Microsoft as well."The FlightSim community for the most part doesn't have an abundance the kind of talent that is available to the gaming community."Again, I have to disagree from experience. While the numbers aren't there to be sure, the talent is markedly higher in this community than many others I've been a part of. It seems to be the average age of this community that makes that difference: there is much, much more experience here in a smaller group of people that makes up for its numbers."The reason for the abundance of talent in the gaming community is that most of them either are or aspire to be professional game developers."Again, I'd have to disagree. Yes, some surely desire to enter the commercial gaming industry. But being realistic: it just ain't gonna happen. And most end-user addon developers simply know this. The game industry is extremely small compared to the end-user communities they foster. Much of the talent I've had the pleasure of knowing has done their work simply for the enjoyment of the work: and the pleasure in its release to the masses.Overall I understand where you are coming from. But I think you describe culture and community more than real barriers or obstacles - at least in general.Take care,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[LAdamson 240]

>Quality of the commercial market is for the most part, below >par in comparison to freeware. Thats a fact. >Seeing how I've been doing this (simming), since the invention of affordable home computers.............. I must have missed something!The majority of my favorite simulated aircraft come from payware ventures & not freeware. And thats really a fact! :)A few that come to mind: Dreamfleet Archer II, Flight1 C-421, FSD Commander, PSS Airbus. L.Adamson

[ErnieAlston 33]

>"Comparing the FlightSim community to other communities is like >comparing Apples to Oranges.">>Unfortunately, I don't agree. I've long been involved in many game >communities to further enjoy my hobbies (and skills). I've been >involved in large and small projects for many of the communities >outside FS, as well as many small personal and a few large group >projects within the sim community. The skill, work, time investment, >dedication, etc in other communities I find no different than here.Obviously something is different, to me its the skillsets. The gaming community has more talent, more skilled programmers, Graphic Artists,etc, etc.Most FS add-ons produced require no programming, gauges do and that's the area that lags behind Commercial products the most. Developing games is lots of programming among other things, the skillset is there in the community and developing. Putting people together doesn't necessarily work, unless you have some individuals with the necessary skillsets. In the FlightSim community there are only a handlfull of skilled gauge developers who haven't already gone shareare or commercial. From what I can tell most freeware panels use the stock gauges as opposed to creation of new original gauges. That points to a lack of skilled gauge programmers in the freeware community. Until that changes top quality panels will be mostly the domain of Commercial vendors.The communities can't be compared, the skillsets are different. The gaming world attracts programmers, the FlightSim community attracts aviation enthusiasts, and aviation professionals. We have our share of developers for sure, but clearly nothing close to what is in the other communities you refer to. Apples and Oranges.>>"No freeware has come close to what has been done with the PSS, PIC, and DF panels.">>And I can see no reason why this is so - outside of culture and ?>community. If the will was there to create a thriving free >infrastructure (as is done in many other communities), there surely >would have been comparable releases from the free community by now.I disagree, the reason is clearly not enough indviduals in the community with the necessary skillsets willing to do it for free. If the skillset was in abundance, we'd have at least one or two individuals come a bit closer to Commercial apps like PSS, and DF than we are now.>Its simply the culture that hasn't grown to feed such a desire in >this community - yet if ever. But large, complex projects are >tackled by free communities every single day.The communities and the skillsets are different. We don't have the skillset nor the large amount of time to do some of the things the Commercial developers are doing.Regards.Ernie.

[LAdamson 240]

That's the way I see it. It appears that most aviation enthusiest's/professionals who also have programming experience tend to eventually go the payware route. I really do believe that some of the best & most technically accurate future designs will be payware, which I have no problem with.L.Adamson

[Guest]

Hi Michael as you know it takes time...ZZZZ to "do" say an airportto the level of detail that we all expect our little senery of CYQTand area has taken up the last 5 months. A big part of the "problem"is no real tools from you know who. One has to spend a lot of timere-inventing the weel so to speak(taking apart code etc) due the lack of an sdk so give us some time I know many people are workingon many different projects dispite the lack of some basic tools!.Take a look over on any of the developer forums it just takes time. Danhttp://members.rogers.com/klasik2/danlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest]

And isnt there a saying "Good things take time"? :-)http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/edenw/FS_..._banner_je7.jpg I took your love for grantedAnd all the things you said to meI need your arms to welcome meBut a cold stone's all I see

[Guest joea]

Why make it a badge of pride that you own no payware? I fully support freeware but really dislike this lingering attitude (perhaps due to the PT/WAS issue) that payware is somehow motivated by greed and freeware is pure.

[Guest]

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