spoiler control

[Bob Scott 7,721]

I use a PFC throttle quad, and have an axis mapped to the spoilers. Can't get the spoilers to arm or deploy proportionally...looks like panel gauge and axis input are fighting each other.With the axis disabled, arming the spoilers and disarming them works...but sometimes the indication comes on...sometimes not, and with spoilers armed and throttles at idle (on the gnd) they do not deploy.Closing the center console window and reopening usually will get the indications to synch up again, but cycling the lever back and forth will get it back out of synch in relatively short order.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, D.C.

[Guest Fjorko]

Same problem here - see my other post !Cheers

[crvm 0]

Bob, The Spoiler logic has changed since the 600-700. They were modelled after the default aircraft for the 600-700 but this did not always work as expected! Changes are these. 1] To ARM the spoilers set the lever to ARM with the throttle quadrant. 2] To use the speedbrakes (ground or air) simply hit /. 3] To retract them on the GROUND simply push /. To retract them in the air push SHIFT /*. *See note below 4]*If they are ARMed for APP and you deploy them like on descent, retraction by SHIFT / will put them back to the INITIAL STATE they were (i.e in this case they were ARMed so back to ARMed they go!). Another note, everyone PLEASE make sure you have throttle to IDLE COMPLETELY *BY* touchdown or the spoilers will NOT deploy automatically! Hope this helps, this operation is not a bug but because of MS's limitations the way it works right. [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/betaimg.jpgAMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | WD SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 |

[Guest tmetzinger]

Big annoyance now that you can't ARM the autospoilers with a keystroke control, apparently one has to use the throttle quadrant.Would LOVE to see the "arm autospoilers" function added to the PMDG menu.

[Bob Scott 7,721]

Dang...this is most unfortunate. Anyone with a good hardware throttle quadrant will be unable to use the spoilers through the quadrant handle. This will include PFC, GoFlight, and the new SimAvionics quad. Bad news for cockpit builders, too.That said, the spoilers are still not behaving as you outline. If I cycle the spoilers from off to arm a couple times with the mouse I can make the arm light remain on with handle in off or vice versa...and with the arm light illuminated and the handle in arm the spoilers still do not deploy at times on landing (with throttles verified at idle).I still think there is a bug here.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, D.C.

[crvm 0]

This has been delt with the whole testing time. MS does not make it easy. They will not deploy if the throttle handles are UP whatsoever. Manually move them so that there is NO forward movement before TD. Many folks have the AP/SPD selected in speed control which leaves the throttles not at idle so when on TD the AT disengages and your throttle handles are in fact not all back.. If you are manually controlling speed on approach with AT armed you must go idle at 50 RA so at TD they will deploy. Works here I just checked once again.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/73049.jpg [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/betaimg.jpgAMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | WD SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 |

[Bob Scott 7,721]

The problem appears to be that the A/T is not reducing power fully to idle at flare and disengagement, and with the PFC throttle axis at 0 the panel is not setting the power setting to match the throttle axis at the time of disconnect. If, after A/T disconnect, I push the throttles up slightly, then return them to idle, the power then reduces completely to idle and the spoilers deploy. The panel should write the throttle axis value (0 in this case) to the appropriate control or FSUIPC offset...but it doesn't if the axis is 0.For example, if I set a power setting (with my hardware throttles) above idle, then push up the power using the mouse, the power setting immediately returns to where the throttle lever is set when I release the mouse button. But if I do the same with the throttle at idle, the power stays up and does *not* come back to idle.Also, I see how the auto-spoilers were programmed and understand it...and there is a way to map control axes to it. For example, I could assign my spoiler lever to prop condition #4 (unused in the 737) and the panel programmer could take the input from that axis and use it to drive the PMDG spoiler logic (e.g. values 0-3000 map to spoilers closed, 3000-6500 maps to spoilers armed, and 6500-16383 maps proportionally across the range of spoiler input.I see a similar problem with my proportional brake axes and the autobrakes as well. With brake axes assigned, the autobrakes are overriden by the axis inputs. If we could similarly ghost the brake axes with other unused assignable parameters like prop condition, the inputs coming in on those axes could be fed as an input to the AB control logic, and when the AB is not in use, the values from the ghost axes are passed on to the brake offsets.MS makes these sorts of things challenging...but not impossible.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, D.C.

[crvm 0]

I'll let Rob explain it if he feels the need. It's hardest to understand something that one really does not understand IMO.[h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/betaimg.jpgAMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | WD SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 |

[rsrandazzo 6,353]

Bob-One of the things that we have continually been faced with is the absolutely rediculous and uninformed methods used to control certain key functions within MSFS...-> Fuel Related Functions-> Spoiler Functions-> Engine start/stop functions...-> Trim... Dear God this is a mess!I often wonder whether or not the only way to get these items improved is to ask the MSFS development team to TRY AND BREAK THEM. ;-) I think this because it certainly seems that they tried to make them work- but succeeded in the complete opposite.To MSFS, all fuel systems are modeled upon the basics of a Cessna 172.... albiet one with a center tank....Spoiler functions are based upon....fiction? According the the defaulted MSFS logic control, if the spoiler handle is placed in the arm position and the airplane is on the ground- the spoilers should deploy.... Only- they decided during the transition to FS9 to see if they could break it further... and now when you are on the ground you generally cannot retract the spoilers without using the key commands... (not always true- but in most cases.... why? Who knows...)Bob- you have flown some turbine airplanes according to your sig... you ever fly a jet with a mixture lever? Well..... MSFS jets all have mixture levers controlling the fuel.... I don't know why either... but they do.... Apparently the boys and girls in redmond assumed that a 707 was just a grown up C172 that goes fast (And has a belly tank! LOL!)Trim.... in all my flying trim is done by feel and with finesse. In FS9, trim is incremented in steps of about 9%. If Boeing or Airbus did that- the stab trim control actuators would have a cycle life of five or six flights rather than thousands....In our efforts to produce realistic behavior for this airplane, we often find ourselves fighting the latent MSFS logic.... Additionally we have spent hundreds of hours trying to find creative ways to control some of the very poor control decisions of MSFS in such a way that they do not become highly unrealistic within the context of the airplane being simulated...For example, we have a rather complex control logic that allows the distinction of ground and flight spoilers, as well as spoilerons....You'll notice that most FS addons to know have allowed the full throw of spoilers in flight, which of course- most airplanes won't do. In order to model this- we have to accept compromises in other areas- one of which is that in order to use the spoilers effective, you need to be mindful of two things:1) You are best off arming/disarming using the mouse. 2) You have to be aware that the spoiler control unit is aware of your JOYSTICK THROTTLE position and if you have that throttle out of idle- you may not get the spoilers on landing... (It's not the A/T's fault here- the spoilers are paying attention to your physical THROTTLE POSITION.)Since October of 2002, I have spent in excess of 500 hours trying to develop a better way to control the spoilers in MSFS.... Haven't come up with one yet- but i'm sure i'll spend another 500hrs trying... ;-)FWIW: Most all of this is documented in the manual.... For my next rant: MSFS Fuel..... oh dear god keep them away from it! AHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Guest FattyBear]

Well after seeing this I realize that you guys have done your best with the base MSFS. I dont have a problem with using the mouse to arm the spoiler, however, sometimes when I do I accidently put the spoiler handle forward too much and the spoiler is deployed just slightly. I didn't realize I had deployed it until I did an external view check :-lol

[Guest UlfB]

Randy,I have tried several times to land the bird with idle throttle and armed spoilers. But the spoilers haven't deployed. The last time I tried I set AT to off and disconnected the AP when passing 100 feet. Spoilers didn't deploy.Yes, I have armed spoilers with the mouse in the throttle console window.Please help me out on this one /Ulf Bjarke:)

[Bob Scott 7,721]

Robert; Copy all...and understand the difficulties fully, as I've been programming gauges and external add-ons to make up for many of these shortcomings for years now. I took several days over one vacation writing a B-747-200 fuel panel which ran piggy-backed on top of another add-on to manage fuel the Boeing way rather than the Microsoft way. FWIW, I actually have flown a turbine acft with a mixture lever. But it was located on the espresso maker in the galley... :-) The mixture levers are always used by MSFS...but the four prop condition levers are functional but unused in a turbine acft. I wrote a quick-n-dirty program last night to demonstrate the concept I described. It took spoiler input from the prop condition #4 axis, and generated a keystroke when the lever on the PFC axis was moved to the armed position (input value 3000 +/- 1000) which was sent to MSFS. Using Key2Mouse, the keystroke was translated to a clickpoint in the PMDG throttle window. It's a very cumbersome way to make a lever input translate to setting the spoiler armed state...and requires the throttle window open and placed in the same position all the time. Would be much better if there were a keyboard assignment or FSUIPC offset...even better if the panel would take the analog inputs from an unused secondary axis directly and blend that into the logic. That way FS is not also trying to do its thing to the spoiler setting with the input on that axis. You've done great things in making the systems work with better fidelity...but for the growing number of folks using hardware flight control systems, or those using the PMDG add-ons as the core of a home cockpit, requiring mouse input to work flight controls is a significant step backward.CheersBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, D.C.

[Guest tmetzinger]

>Randy,>>I have tried several times to land the bird with idle throttle>and armed spoilers. But the spoilers haven't deployed. The>last time I tried I set AT to off and disconnected the AP when>passing 100 feet. Spoilers didn't deploy.>>Yes, I have armed spoilers with the mouse in the throttle>console window.>>Please help me out on this one >>/Ulf Bjarke:) This COULD be a control calibration issue, so try this:at 1000 feet, check the spoilers are armed on the throttle console and that you have the green speed brake armed light.at 100 feet, turn off the autothrottle.at 50 feet, pull your throttle control to idle, and then hit the F1 key (the keyboard shortcut for idle). don't touch your throttle control at all.If the spoilers deploy, you should try recalibrating your throttle axis, because "0" on the joystick isn't corresponding to "0" in MSFS.If they don't deploy, we'll have to think of something else.

[crvm 0]

It also worked with my AT on and spd selected off by hitting F1 @ 50 RA. Hows it going Tim? FInd any new goodies?[h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/betaimg.jpgAMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | WD SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 |

[Guest stefanwa]

Hi Robert!Nice (somewhat frightening!) stories about FS9!Out of interest, did you ever contact the MS development team about those issues to be corrected in future versions? Did they come back to you? With all your knowledge you could be of some great help for future additions, although I think you'd not want to become too much involved in MS's development process! :DGood night!Steve W.