Does anybody know how to download from:

[Guest]

Hi eko,"I do not think that an individual who wants to download, say, 50 files in one day should obtain permission from the source site. If the distributing site permits this kind of access, then the eventual resting place of the files is of no concern to the distributing site (nor should it be) and rests solely on the license which is included in the file, as per the authors request."Actually, I think you're missing something important here (but I know others don't share my beliefs here so this is only from my opinion). It costs money (sometimes quite a lot) for a site such as AVSIM to provide the bandwidth for distribution of our freeware files. As a freeware author (in the sim space), I don't support sites that wish to *make* money off of my free works - but I fully support sites that wish to recoup their expenses (including any administrative expenses where implemented - take a pay raise Francois :-)) while distributing my works.I fully believe its a symbiotic relationship with sites such as AVSIM. Our works (and even our hopfully lively and informative participation in forums like this) bring many visitors to such a site. As such, many of those visitors get to enjoy our works (and get to enjoy a forum like this as well) for free. In the specific case of AVSIM, they try to recoup their expenses with advertising (and other commercial projects) that depend upon the number of visitors who come to the site (of which we bring), as well as fully optional donations (of which, I have no idea why they don't have donation drives more often and more publicly!).When a site, even a fully free site such as you describe, leeches large amounts of files from AVSIM, they are stealing the eyes that would otherwise visit AVSIM and possibly click on some banner ads, or decide because of the fine services available to donate. In my view, thats simply not right. Not only did they have to pay for the bandwidth to fill that sites library, but they loose the eyes that would have resulted in those files staying where they were. Unless AVSIM was contacted by such a site to setup some kind of cross promotion or some such, I think its fully wrong to leech a lot of freeware files from a site to build a separate library.I *am* torn between the subscription model that many sites are implimenting though. While I can understand and support the need to recoup expenses on expensive bandwidth, servers, etc, some of these sites most assuredly make an actual profit off of their subscriptions (and I mean beyond even possibly paying their own operators a reasonable fee for their time investment, etc). That bothers me. Problem is: there's really no way to know who does and who doesn't charge just to cover expenses and who makes money off of freeware through subscriptions. Its a real problem for me lately (and how I should word my licenses)..."Why an author would want their file deleted from a completely free downloading location is beyond me..."For just such a reason as FSPlanet's case. While the site didn't break the letter of my license (the spirit is another topic) since they *did* have free access to my files, they sure did break a lot of other peoples licenses. And they mass leeched files (including mine) from AVSIM. So, I requested my files be removed as well in support of my freeware friends and AVSIM. The result? Nothing. They're still there after multiple requests.As such, I *do* fully understand where you are coming from... And wish things were as simple as they used to be - such a site as you describe would not have had a problem five years ago I think - critical mass hadn't hit yet in this hobby yet. I also fully and strongly agree with your "active policing" ideas (except for the Pop-Up window idea - ech! I HATE those :-)). Community policing, and specifically the non-popup (;-)) suggestions you bring up, would go a long way to "shaming" the public crooks like FSPlanet out of practice I believe.Take care,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest eko]

Elrond, I totally see, know and understand your point about AVSIM losing "hits" because there is another place to download which got their files from AVSIM (or flightsim.com). This is a very valid and completely just argument. However, I do think that ultimately it may benefit to some degree.With somewhat reduced downloads (and a hypothetical site like my own would seriously not make that big a dent in the download base of AVSIM or Flightsim.com), also come reduced costs. So in this sense, bandwidth distrubition to another download site can be beneficial, especially if the hypothetical site is truly in the community spirit and informs everybody about how great avsim and flightsim are and that any user needs to visit them regularly, and generates traffic in that way.An individual could visit the hypothetical site, never having heard of AVSIM, and be driven to AVSIM by the hypothetical site. This is the way gaming communities work, they share the goodness of what is available. Linking to relevant, similar sites is the lifeblood by which they all work.(BEGIN SOAPBOX: I've always been a bit personally "peeved" at how AVSIM and Flightsim seem to be more in competition than cooperation... but this may be my own flawed view. :END SOAPBOX)An individual could visit the hypothetical site for a certain download, and since the hypothetical site doesn't have it "all", will drive that individual to avsim or flightsim. This is just an example of how I think a little "given away" can ultimately turn into "more back".

[Johan_Dees 84]

Same storage place as FSPLANET!Johan[A HREF=http://www.phoenix-simulation.co.uk]Phoenix Simulation Software[/A]Unofficial PSS website:www.people.zeelandnet.nl/johdMy help may not me much usefull, or usefull much..eh?http://people.zeelandnet.nl/johd/index2/Ar...s/Leg1/klm5.jpgTrue Blue! K L M!

[Guest TimD]

The individual on this website in question does not even pass the files along in their original form. He repackages them, with different names, and thus, is actually even changing to author's original download. This is both unethical, and contrary to just about everyone's copyright statement I have ever read.In the minutia this character is indefensible. He prowls the Internet, grabs author's files, repackages them, and then distributes them on a for-fee basis. In spite of the original author's copyright statement. And even ignores individual author's requests to remove their files from his site.Basically just giving the individual authors, and the flightsim community in general, the finger. How can this behavior be defended? [link:www.fsheartland.net]http://www.fsheartland.nt>/Heartland_sig.gif

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

I have refrained from posting in this thread; 1.) while my body got back into the correct time zone and my body clock caught up with it, and 2.) when I had time to review all of this and the airindigo site. I have just come from there and am more than a bit PO'd. I take particular exception to this:http://www.indigocactus.com/AirIndigoAuthors.htmI will leave it to you to figure out why. What an insult to the basic intelligence of all of us. Mr. Miller, if you are reading this, let me be one of the first to use the DMCA as hopefully another arrow in the quiver that you will shortly find is pointed directly at you. The DMCA (The Digital Millinium Copyright Act) specifically prohibits distribution of author's works without THEIR PRIOR permission to do so (of course, that is also embodied in the Amended Copyright Act of 1988 - which Canada is a signatory to, and which you have also conveniently ignored). Making them "free" as you have conveniently just announced, does not address the fact that you have purloined those files from elsewhere and are using them without that permission.

[Guest SoarPics]

Elrond worte:"Unless and until one or more crooks really ticks of a large enough set of authors so they/we band together and spend some hard-earned cash to hire a lawyer and make a very public example, no license - with "free to distribute" clauses or not - is worth its weight in salt to a crook."But a number of "not free to distribute" copyrights, organized as one voice by and for the authors, will speak loudly to the poachers. It will tell them this hobby will not stand for theft and piracy, and that the community is watching them. That's when the poachers will slither away to find an easier mark.eko has the right idea, of course. Policing is the answer, but very difficult to institute. How can the community quickly educate the newest members against the poachers? Two of our own members here, Heather and Kellym, stumbled onto this airindigo.net site believing it to be just another part of the community. What effective protocals can the community put in place to educate it's members, especically the new ones, against the crooks?Two posters here have already taken the step to eleminate the "free to distribute" loophole the poachers use to rip off the community and it's authors. Tim and Steve, and the rest of FSD-International, have expressly omitted any "free to distribute" clauses in their copyright statements. They have included a EULA in their products that forbids any free distribution of their creations. It is this evolution to which I'm referring.If the hobby's freeware authors came together as one voice (not that difficult, I believe... this is a small community and folks know each other), and removed any and all "free to distribute" clauses from their copyright statements, then uploaded their creations to sites they knew to be reputable (each author would be free to make his/her own choices, of course) the poachers would see the handwriting on the wall.I've seen before the sort of evolution this hobby is experiencing. I believe this issue can only follow one of three possible paths: 1)freeware authors become so frustrated with the poaching that they quit; 2)the community bands together to speak in one voice against the poachers (the most pleasant and refreshing possibility, though extremely difficult to institute); 3)authors band together to protect each other by first eliminating the "free to distribute" clause, and replacing it with a EULA that prohibits free distribution.That third route is a tough pill for many to swallow. Folks like Steve and Tim have accepted this path, and continue to offer their fine creations, though as payware (I personally have no problem with paying). Hey, they could have just as easily chosen the first path.Simply more food for thought,

[Francois_Dumas 10]

Ah ... ! Do they have rotating banners?? That didn't show up when I looked... Oh well.. :-outta Francois :-wave________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online!email: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Guest]

The rotating banner was an advert for TecPilot who provide a subscription based web service such as that advocated by AirIndigo.net ...

[Guest]

Hi Greg,I personally don't think the situation is quite as dim as you say: while indeed these crooks are a royal pain in the arse, so far there are relatively few of them. Now is the time to, as an entire community, deride and shame them and let them know in the clearest of terms that the community they rely upon will *not* stand for their shoddy practices. In effect, to make this message absolutely clear and hold them accountable as a very public example of what is *not* an acceptable business practice to this community.If AVSIM can so successfully operate its huge library, forums and every other great service they provide without mandatory user subscriptions, then so can every other huge FS site. This is the exact sharpened arrow that needs to be shot in these crooks bellies.The AirIndigo "justification" page is simply incredible: they talk about 3rd party ads and the like "commercializing freeware" while they shift the onus of their profit model on to their very users instead of third party support such as AVSIM: thus commercializing *our* free software AND the end-users who visit them. Worse, the foundation for this is stealing bandwidth from legitimate sites around the net and disclaiming author rights ("lets talk about it" - good god).No, I don't think cracking down on end-users from an authors perspective is a solution in the least: the solution is to shame like crooks as publicly as possible, or take collective legal action if that is not successful. Thankfully, AVSIM looks to be willing to take the leader position on this: every fight needs a strong and determined leader; otherwise the rank and file will quickly abandon a cause. I hope Tom and the AVSIM guys make this a site wide issue to inform and empower all users here at AVSIM as "foot soldiers" against these practices (and this second company in particular), so to speak.I have always been a strong proponent of the freeware and Free Software models: shifting the onus onto legitimate end-users and away from the crooks who perpetrate (in complete disregard for any licenses anyway) isn't a valid answer in my opinion. Others such as yourself, of course, are free to make their own decisions in the best manner you see possible... I hold no grudge against anyone who takes a different approach than I - in the least.Take care,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest SoarPics]

We seem destined to differ on an acceptable solution to this dilemma, but we do agree on one important point: "Others such as yourself, of course, are free to make their own decisions in the best manner you see possible... I hold no grudge against anyone who takes a different approach than I - in the least."I fear that until the community can arrive at a concensus strategy against the thiefs, the thiefs will continue to feed off the hobby's talents. Sad and frustrating!!!A cold one on me, Elrond :-beerchug

[Guest]

While it may not seem like it from what I've written here, indeed your arguments have had an influence on my perception and beliefs on the proper way to handle like cases in the future. I wouldn't have considered license crackdowns for my works before your posts. I am now re-appraising that belief if things get much worse in the future with new crooks like these two. I'm still not sure of any benefit it might bring, but its at least given me some new things to think about.So, in that regard, thanks for the enlightenment. I always enjoy someone who can provide me a fresh perspective I might have otherwise missed.Take care Greg (and one back at ya :-beerchug :-)),http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[ShezA 176]

BTW Greg,I wrote to Ferdy and (with appropriate legal language), he removed the files I had specified. Simple letters do not matter as I learned when he ignored them. Check an earlier post of mine in this forum to see what was written, it was suggested by one of our contributors here.CheersShez

[Guest SoarPics]

Picture a man throwing his hands up, shaking his head, and walking away.Me thinks it's probably time to direct my energy elsewhere.Goodnight all,

[ShezA 176]

If you read the General Discussion Forum on this topic you would have come across many developers coming together and actually writing to FSPlanet, Rackshack, VOLFTP and that has already made Ferdy sit up and take notice. What happened? Ferdy has begun to remove the files of authors who write to him.VOLFTP has apparently taken notice and already contacted Ferdy about the site to which Ferdy probably gave some explanation to get him out of his dilemma. An 'upload to VOLFTP' button has appeared on the site etc.AVSIM banning Ferdy access has also caused FSPlanet to lose quality from what I can see.Not enough :-( I know but it was a start. :-wink2 I encourage more freeware authors to approach Ferdy and VOLFTP to remove their files. So the gist is we as freeware authors did make progress.I think our problem is the legal recourse issue. No matter how much we threaten legally the result will only be achieved if a physical legal demand appears on Ferdy's desk. Now that is tricky and cumbersome (costly) considering the worldwide hobby we enjoy (Ferdy's site is in Spain, his ISP host I think is in the US).I agree a common voice would be good though. Any suggestions? Maybe we can whip up a group....???Shez