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VOR tracking for the vertically challenged

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Hi Lowell,Just wanted to say that everything you have said so far makes perfect sense. Obviously you know exactly what you are doing. But even if I disagreed, since I am not a "real world" pilot, I would never assume that I could correct your instructions anyway.But I do feel maybe you might have misinterpreted David's intent. And David, please correct me if I am wrong. Since the graphic David included in his message showed that he eventually did land on a southerly approach--Rwy 16R or 16L, I believe that indeed was his intent from the beginning. (I can't tell for sure because of the graphic is not zoomed in close enough, but I believe it was probably 16L.)And I believe that is further confirmed by the fact that he still chose that southerly landing approach even though he could have changed to 34R or 34L while he was still south of KSEA. I can think of only one reason that would not be the case and that would be if his altitude was still too high at that point and he still needed to bleed off some altitude before entering final.So unless David corrects me, I would personally appreciate it if you would also take that approach as you continue your instructions. I say that because I am seriously interested in hearing what you have to say. I believe I can learn a lot from your experience.I look forward to your continuation.You have me "on the edge of my seat"! :)Happy Flying!Bill MolonyAtlanta GA USAUnder the 27L Approach to KATL--the busiest airport in the world :)

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Guest Franken

Very interesting thread. Being far from a real world pilot myself I would love to hear more about this too. :)

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Bill:David's comments left out some very necessary information if one wants to truly solve his problem immediatelly without more information. So I took the situation just as it appeared to me. I thought he was trying to make the ILS approach to runway 34R. It is the only approach that uses the "SEA" in the identifier. All three of the other runways use different disignations. Look for my next installment. Thanks for your reply.

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David, and all interested:I have taken one more crack at this. This time, remember, as before, there was a little shortage of information to get this all right without talking directly with David. I am shooting from what I saw. One thing I leaned in a technical writing course--it is hard, hard to explain things so we all see them the same way. But here is my shot at finishing this up. Happy flying. If anyone wants I'll do some screenshots of all this.For David:and All others who are interested.I want to post once again on the problem David was having with his VOR tracking and low altitude airways. He made a mistake. We are looking at that mistake. Or, if that is not completely possible, we are looking at some situations which have come about because of his inquiry which we can only hope are similiar, and also that our solutions or answers will be useful.Once again: All radials are exactly that. They emanate outwardly from the VOR in 365 directions, or degrees if you will. We only need to use 360 degrees of the compass.There is no KSEA ILS transmitter. There are only the four ILS localizer courses at the SEA, or KSEA airport. This is the Seattle-Tacoma Airport in Washington state.Those four ILS systems are as follows: ILS Runway 16R as: 111.7 Mhz and 161 degrees inbound.I-SZI.ILS Runway 16L as: 110.3 Mhz and 161 degrees inbound.I-SQN.ILS Runway 34R as: 110.3 Mhz and 338 degrees inbound.I-SEA.ILS Runway 34L as: 111.7 Mhz and 338 degrees inbound.I-TUC.Notice on the approach plate, or other information being used that the ILS localizer for runway 16R, frequency 111.7 is identified as I-SZI, Channel 54. The Channel number is for the use of Military aircraft usually, but be very concious of the morse code used to identify the localizer. If you do not know morse code, and most don't, all you have to do is look at the code, and listen to the frequency and read it off. Match the code in your ear to the code on the chart. The information for the ILS localizer for runway 16L, frequency 110.3 is identified as I-SQN. I will omit the UHF or military channel information for this and other systems. Look at the morse code how it differs.The information for the ILS localizer for runway 34L, frequency 111.7 is I-TUC. Again, look at the morse code.The information for the ILS localizer for runway 34R, frequency 110.3, is I-SEA. Again, look at the morse code.And although the CAT II, and CAT III approach information is not to be considered here, those approaches do exist.More importantly for the CAT II and CAT III pilot and aircraft--we can now see from above that each of the four standard ILS approaches have a different identifier even if the frequencies do match! Look carefully. There does not appear to me to be any back course approaches in use at the KSEA airport. So we shall not discuss the back course approach.This particular discourse need go not much further. This is not a contest to see who has the most knowledge about the ILS course. This is merely a training exercise in how to fly the ILS course. And like so many other things, there are a multiplicity of ways to accomplish this goal. This is just one that works. The ILS information is taken from the U.S. Terminal procedures Northwest, Volume 1 of 1, dated: 20 May 1999 and I think probably still accurate.The CDI. The CDI does not indicate when it is time for final approach. Final approach might be construed as a lot of things done a lot of ways, but not by the use of the CDI. Let's not try to figure out here just what does make this final approach. Let's just see if we can fly the one I believe David wanted to fly. And we'll look at some things on the way.I believe David wanted to fly the ILS to Runway 34R at KSEA. This is identified above as:ILS Runway 34R: 110.3 Mhz and 338 degrees inbound.I-SEA. And please, don't forget your morse code for I-SEA. You do need to listen to it, and identify that you are on the correct ILS frequency.If I step back a bit here, and we recall that I flew this in the Baron, and the Cessna 172 both, and both times from the Yakima airport, here is how I did it. I must reiterate:I took off South or Southwest, made a right climbing turn to intercept the Victor-4 Airway a few miles NorthWest of the YKM VOR. I kept climbing until I reached my cruise altitude of 10,500 feet. Remember, I was VFR and practicing IFR. I did not use ATC. I did not use weather or clouds. Do it the easy way first. Introduce clouds next, and lastly do the ATC. Also, do it the easy way, use the autopilot. Use it like in a real airplane. Engage the heading hold, use the heading bug, use the altitude mode, use the rate of climb settings you would use in a real airplane. Why not do it all. Microsoft Flight Simulator, remember: As real as it gets.In so far as the autopilot goes, I like to fly heading hold most of the time. But reserve the NAV lock for now and then use. During your actual approach we'll speak on this stuff a bit more.Now, we climb, we track the 285 degree radial off YKM.ASAP we take the number two nav unit and tune it to SEA VOR. We tune the ADF to the ODD or DONDO Non Directional Radio Beacon at SEA on 224.0 Mhz.Note: This radio beacon is not part of the official runway 34R ILS approach into SEA. In fact, the published approach is an ILS/DME approach and I am sure uses a radar vector to get into position for this approach. But this is not an official approach we are flying here. This is just practical training. The NDB is there, and no doubt it was a part of the approach at sometime in the not too distant past. You can use this information to fly thousands of similiar approaches all over the world. So let's use DONDO. Where were we? Oh. We just tuned in the ADF, but got no useable signal. How do we know? The ADF needle has not responded. It points about ninety degrees off the selected NDB. Dondo is ahead, and the ADF needle is pointing hard right. What about the number two nav? We set it to SEA. Wow! Look! We are at 5,500 feet climbing in the Cessna and we have a good, useable signal. The CDI is working, and if we listen on the frequency, to SEA we can identify the morse code. Good. if things are going this well, just tune the number one VOR to SEA and center the needle. Now we can center them both by hand, which is just fine if we were on course when we switched freqencies, or we can look at our low altitude or VFR charts and set the airway reciperacal or the outbound radial off SEA. There will be three or four degrees difference between the bearing or course where you fly into the SEA VOR, as oppossed to where you flew out of the YKM VOR. IF you departed YKM on the 285 Radial, then expect to arrive at SEA (should you be so bold as to overfly that VOR) on something between the 280 and the 290 degree heading needed to hold the course as you approach the station on the opposite radial. You fly in actually on the opposing radial with the heading approximating your original heading out of YKM.(If this is hard to understand, let me know and we'll try to clarify. But all things are not easy).Since we have tuned in the ODD radio beacon on the 224.0 frequency, with luck it will respond some miles out from SEA and we can then use it for more practical navigation and more precise location information. Here is what we might do next.We climb on up to 10,500 or any altitude which gives us a safe margin for terrain clearance. Use what you will just avoid the cumulo granitus. Level off. Fly the autopilot. Enjoy the scenery. Now, I was about all day getting up to 10,500 but I made it. And by then I had great DME information, Ground speed, time to station so on. With all this (and can you believe I had GPS too?) Well, listen, just use it until you can fly this trip without it, then don't use it. That's simple.Start planning your descent and approach before you need to start down. I figure in the Cessna 172 I needed to get down to about 2,000 AGL for flying the ILS approach. You don't really need an approach plate to tell you this. Seattle is at sea level,and that is a good initial approach altitude. I was racking on about 100 knots, and with my distance and time showing on the DME it was easy to see that I ought to start down about 16 minutes out from SEA. I did exactly that. With sixteen minutes till I was to hit the VOR, I powered back to 2100 or so RPM, still on the autopilot; I set the rate of descent at 500 FPM and the new altitude to 2,000 and punched the buttons to go on down. Use your altitude hold and the airplane will lock onto the new rate of minus 500 feet and start you down to 2000 that you have selected as your new altitude (do this on the autopilot, in your radio stack).Now by this time you ought to be getting a bite on the ADF. When you see the needle reacting, listen to the code. Identiy the station by the code. Now fly a new heading direct to the NDB at ODD (Dondo). This is not part of the official approach, but we'll use it instead of radar to get setup for that FINAL approach we need so badly.You're now descending toward DONDO. Your rate of descent is set to get you down to approach altitude over the DONDO NDB or thereabouts. IF it works out fine, if not make some adjustments. Just judge it. It'll work out.As you are now approaching DONDO, you have to tune number one VOR or nav receiver to the ILS for Runway 34R. Look at all the good information we talked about. Better yet, use MSFS2002 and let the Mapped Information show you all this. Use the Map a lot. It has most of this navigation information on it. And by now you ought to be able to fly the NDB, so set up the number one, or two, your preference, to find and identify the ILS. When you see your needle (CDI) reacting, you can identify with the use of the morse code. Verify that the needle (CDI) is to the side of the indicator you expect it to be on (left in this case from our position on the east side of the course and holding a NW heading. Once satisfied you have a good ILS signal, and you are definitely navigating by your ADF, then switch both Navs to the ILS and identify on both receivers. Set both course indicators to the inbound runway course (338 degrees). Technically, this is not necessary on the old CDIs. But it is a requirement on the newer pictoral nav units and it makes a great reminder about where you're going and where your airplane ought to be headed on final.Now, we're tuned to the ILS on two receivers. We're flying to the NDB and what do we do next? We're about down on our altitude to the initial approach altitude. The beacon is ahead on the nose and coming up fast. The ILS is splayed out across our course and the airport to the right, but we have to go left this time. We need room to manuver, and set up for that final approach. As we begin to get clues that we are just about to arrive over the NDB and over the center of the ILS going the wrong way, we turn directly outbound on the reciperical heading we need to get to the runway. Yikes, we're going the opposite way on purpose.The ILS was, we said two or three times previously, 338 degrees; so we go 338 minus 200 is 138, plus 20 is 158. Then we turn left to 158 degree heading to fly, or to parallel the outbound course on the ILS. (You can just add or subtract 180 degrees if it is easier for you. For most of us it isn't). Either way we fly outbound heading about 158 degrees.We watch all the indicators. What is happening? Where exactly are we? The ADF has swung. It now ought to be pointing approximately behind us. Only approximately due to the overshoot in the turn. The ILS? What does it show? Is it important? Well, with the pictoral nav, it shows the exact location of the course and in relation to your airplane's location if you have it set up and have the head of the CDI arrow setting on 338 degrees (the inbound reference). But if you have no PNI (pictoral navigation indicator) and you have the old CDI, look for this:Suddenly you are flying away from the airport, and away from the ILS transmiter. So you can expect the needle to show the opposite to the inbound information. It shows you are needing to go right, but the ILS is to your left now. Disregard it. Don't worry. It will all work out.How else might we know where we are? Well in MSFS2002 until you get totally confident, use your GPS. Use your Map display. They both show you here at this time (just hit pause for a bit) that you are outbound, and west of the ILS course.Now, we need a procedure to get squared away. Just happen to have one. It is called flying the procudure turn. Time yourself right now for one minute. If you are not down to your initial approach altitude, make sure you are working on your descent too. At the end of one minute, make a forty five degree turn to the right. (Use the charts you have to figure out the best direction of turn). This is not official here so figure it out in relation to terrain, obstrucitons, so on. If the world's tallest building is on the right, better turn left.Fly one more minute. While flying this one minute leg, verify all your radios are still tuned, still set. Keep on flying the airplane. You are not a passenger. This is the time to cross check everything. Course indicators still set? Altitude okay? Autopilot doing as expected? Check it all. You have a whole minute.Make your procedure turn now. Do a 180 degree turn. Need a procedure to do the procudure turn? Use the one we used before. If you are now flying 158, plus the 45 to the outbound heading, it is about 203 degrees. About. So plan to come around to the opposite or 203 minus 180 is 023, or 203 degrees, plus 20 is 223, minus 200 is 023 degrees. Your intercept heading for the ILS is now almost Northeast or 023 degrees.When you fly this turn, make it to the inside. That is, if our first turn is right, make your next turn left. If your first turn is left, make your next turn or last half of the procedure right. This keeps extending your pattern and giving you more room to operate in. (As well as complying with normal airspace restrictions and so on). Note: Don't you hate word processors? I just lost about three or four hunderd good words of instruction here. This is NOTEPAD and I just hit the wrong key and boom--it was gone.Well, where do I take up again? Ha. What a bummer.Where are we, what do our instruments show, what do we do next, and is this scary? Ought we to be afraid just because we are perhaps in some cloud? Let's see.If we did as we ought, we are now headed toward the ILS course on an intecept heading which is approximately 45 degrees more than the course inbound. So if the inbound is 338, the heading we ought to be on is about 023 degrees. We are now gong Northeast and the course is a bit left of north. Our CDI or pictoral nav shows the course to the right. Our altitude is still at that 2,000 or if we do have an approach plate, it is as dipicted on the chart. This is close enough if we are on our own, clear of ATC, and have all the facts about the terrain. Now we run our landing checks, get it all done but gear and flaps maybe. In the Cessna we can forget the gear huh? Not in the Baron.Good time to get our airspeed and power exactly as we would like to have them. If you have a chart, you can use it to figue out more details here about how to time your approach, how long it will take. Just look at the boxes on the lower right of the approach plate. Use the information to help in your planning. If you don't have it. Not to worry. We'll do fine.As we near the approach course, or the ILS, we see the CDI starting to swing slowly in toward the center of the instrument's face. This is our clue to make or plan how to make our turn onto course; the ILS course. It is simple in the PNI version, and you must work just a little bit harder when using the older version of the CDI instruments. Use trial and error. If you do have the pictoral version and are using it, use the lubber line as an aid. When the CDI hits the end of the lubber line, start your turn and use enough bank to keep the CDI and the lubber line just touching each other for as long as possible.If you make this turn properly you'll be on course, on the ILS, and below the glide slope. The DME ought to verify your position as outside the ODD NDB by two or three miles, and you can double up on all your pre landing checks now. Get it all done but the flaps and gear.Okay. Power is set. Airspeed is on it. Altitude is right. Autopilot is on. Altitude hold is on. Now go to the nav stack and click to get your autopilot set to APPROACH mode. I use the altitude hold, and the approach mode. When the glide slope comes alive, and your autpilot captures it, the altitude hold will kick off automatically. When this happens, drop the gear. Make sure you are at or below gear speed if in a retractable gear airplane such as the Baron. Set your power so you can get the speed and descent you want. Your choice here to set up a rate on the autopilot for descent. Manage airspeed with power and use the autopilot for the rate of descent works. What ever you do you may get an argument here. Do you control rate or airspeed with power? Do you do which with pitch? I'll let you figure that out. But don't be scared.I bring this up because one pilot spoke of it in his reply. Believe me, there is nothing scary about it. It is business for the pilot. Just beautiful, lovely business. Let's not be scared now, after all we're pilots. Now if you have a big old thunderstorm on your path directly ahead, or if your fuel is about exhausted, or if your wings are carrying just about all the ice then can handle, well then, you might be allowed to show a little more concern. But don't be afraid. It hampers your ability to do the job at hand. And it is doing the job, day in and day out that counts. I hope that this set of instructions has given some one or more of you an ida about how you might learn a little about how to do this job, on this little procedure for this one approach. Keep in mind the universal here.Happy FlyingIf we need corrections, and we might, let me know. All of this information is subject to error. Please advise if you see the need for changes.Lowell Wiley

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Bill:I have just taken one more look at what I think David did, and what he said. And then at your reply. I have to say I still believe he was attempting an ILS approach into runway 34R at SEA. Here is why I can continue to believe this. One: Red Circle or no red circle, one must tune the ILS somewhere in order to use it. Someone unfamiliar might do it way out from the airport. Two: Notice that on the sideview chart, the one showing the descent profile--believe it or not he appears to have maintained the glide slope right on down to the ground or near to it.Three: Everything he said leads me to believe this was his intent. He planned to fly this ILS approach into this airport. He also refers to the KSEA ILS. Well, there is no KSEA ILS. But there is an I-SEA localizer for the 34R ILS approach. That is how I see it. Now, let me make some comments on your reply. Hopefully this may help you as well as David. In my opinion, IFR flying is not exciting because you "can't see out the windows." And in fact, it can go from routine, kind of a run-of-the-mill flying to very exciting for a variety of reasons I guess, but not seeing out the windows is not particularly one of them. Not in and of itself. You speak of "the final approach area." I am not sure what that is. This needs more thought or study. The standard landing pattern you speak of sounds like a "standard trafic pattern." Remember, standard traffic patterns are not used all the time. And in fact, often less than more at tower controlled airports. And hardly ever by IFR traffic on approach.There is no "Magic Spot." If there is I have not found it. And believe me I am sure I have looked. Ha. And you too Bill, assumed things by looking at that little red circle. Ha. I have to believe now that you missed David's intentions farther than I may have, which we don't know yet. You speak of the back course being 320. Sorry, no. There is no back course at this airport. No official back course. You might say well all ILS courses have a back course. Okay. I'll admit you might get to do that. But offically SEA does not use any back course approaches or so my charts tell me--and if they did the heading would be 340 degrees, not 320. Sorry Bill. Now, I must say you put a lot of time and effort into helping David. That is how it should be. And you may know him, whereas I don't, and you may know exactly what he needs, whereas I don't. So surely you did not do all wrong here. But I have not been able to see this your way yet at all. Let's both ask David to give us more information next time. Come on David, next time give us all the information you have on this. Ha. Please--be way more specific! Ha.And if you can or if you can't--keep on flying. Keep on having fun with MSFS2002.

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Hi Lowell,Enjoyed your description! :)Thanks for the info.But I wonder what happened to David.Hope all of this helped you David!Happy Flying!Bill MolonyAtlanta GA USAUnder the 27L Approach to KATL--the busiest airport in the world :)

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Hi Lowell,I agree that we do have very little info to go on. But after reviewing the messages again, I noticed something more.Check out Message #10. It was David's response to the graphic in my Message #2. In his #10 he said, "The bold red line was the route I had intended to take...." From that I can only assume that a southerly approach into 16R or 16L was indeed his intent.As for his reference to the "KSEA ILS", I don't believe he was referring to any actual ILS or VOR or NDB indentifier but rather simply a generic reference to any ILS signal coming from the Seattle Airport whose ICAO code happens to be KSEA.I was indeed definitely mistaken in my statement "back course being 320". It should have indeed been 340--or to even be more accurate, 338. I was not at the time actually looking at charts but rather just picturing in my mind what was happening. And I was just using a little dime calculator to figure the correct approximate heading. Apparently I pushed the wrong buttons! :)I am well aware that there is probably no official "Back Course ILS" at KSEA but my reference was simply a generic and an approximation. I probably should have used the term "reciprocal" heading instead. And I definitely should have been more accurate with my calculations.RE my reference to "the final approach area" and your reference to a "standard traffic pattern", I have heard all kinds of terminology and phrases used to describe those--both from real world and sim world pilots. From my reading, I have found very little that actually standardizes the terminology for any such words or phrases.I know that a lot of real world documentation shows a wide variety of versions of each and most share a lot of similarity. But there are a number of phrases and descriptions and graphical representations that seem to work just fine in most situations.Of course nearly all of that goes out the window when you are flying in ATC controlled airspace where the FAA has accepted much of the responsibility for getting you and all other aircraft in the area down reasonably safely. You don't question them, you just follow their instructions--to the letter! :)And at an major international airport such as KSEA, one would NEVER be allowed to do what David, you, and I are discussing anyway! :)I personally LOVE IFR flying! It is extremely exciting to me. I love setting up weather conditions such that the runway is only visible when I am just a half mile or less short of touchdown. And then I fly those dials and push those buttons and love it when I have successfully hit the runway "on the numbers". (And yes, I know that you don't really try to hit touchdown on the runway numbers :)But of course that is safe to do in FS2K2. I don't know that I would feel the same in a real aircraft. But I can imagine that it could be a real adrenaline rush to say the least!!! :)Lowell, I very much admire and am very jealous of your real world experience! I love hearing you "talk the talk" from the perspective of someone who has really "walked the walk"! Keep it coming!Happy Flying!Bill MolonyAtlanta GA USAUnder the 27L Approach to KATL--the busiest airport in the world :)

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Wow, I'm so sorry I was MIA for the last 3-4 days. I'm having computer problems (self-inflicted of course), and tonight was the first night to get back on the forum. You guys are fantastic, but I still have to read through all the replies.Lowell - You deserve a special thank you. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect such a detailed response. I now have to apologize to you for my delay in following up this thread. Unfortunately, I'm in the home stretch of writing for a federal research grant (I'm actually about to reach the big four-oh, and I've spent more time in school than I care to admit). But I'm a biologist, Jim, not a pilot (note the reference to Star Trek, an old favorite for me). But I digress. Let me give you one answer that certainly sparked lively discussion. My intent was indeed to land on 16L. I'm actually on a cross-country trek that started in San Diego (my adopted home town). All my flights are basically hand-flown, although I do use the autopilot to hold course (with occassional corrections for wind). This is true of my landings as well. I figure if you have to use the AP all the time, your really not flying. As for the ILS reference, I'll be the first to admit that I still have much to learn, including terminology :-shy. What I was trying to do was fly toward the airport, and then enter a left traffic pattern (left turns, correct?) in order to land on Rnwy 16. As far as VOR navigation, what I understand right now is that, as you stated, the radials all eminate from the VOR station. I follow one radial toward the station (inbound) and then the opposite VOR outbound. Your correct, I don't yet know the terminology. But if I waited to learn it correctly first, I wouldn't have been able to ask my question.Radio navigation is new to me, and I find that for myself, the best way to learn is by making mistakes. The beauty with FS2K2 is I cannot hurt myself (or anyone else for that matter) by my mistakes. The only thing that gets damaged is my pride. At this point I lack any approach plates. Each day (when I can), I pull out an old world atlas from the bookshelf and pick my next destination. I then have a general idea of where I'm heading, and I use the flight planner to set up my flight. I know that this is far from real-world flight rules, but it works fine for me now. BTW - I am in no way implying that I shouldn't be admonished for using the wrong terminology and not supplying all the needed information. Guilty as charged.As for the plane, although I've been practicing flying jets lately (ERJ-145), my cross-country trek is in the Beech King Air. I like this plane, and it allows me to enjoy the scenery on my trek. You could best describe my flights as a combination of VFR, but using instruments for navigation.So there you go everyone. When I have the time (I have a defective mainboard that I need to replace first), I'll read through all the responses and post responses as needed. And Lowell - please don't stop with the education. I love to learn :-)

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>>outwardly from the VOR in 365 directions, or degrees if you >will. ??????I highly doubt it. 365 - What for ? The concept of the 'radial' is purely abstract. VOR station consists of 2 transmitters - one transmits the background reference steady signal the other one is a rotating beacon which provides the "phase" information relative to magnetic north - in a very simplistic description. In fact there are inifinite number of radials if one wants to be precise but the aircraft receiver can only discern 360 of them. One could probably built another super-VOR receiver that could work with 0.1 deg accuracy.Michael J.

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Hi David,Welcome back! Hope you get your PC problems under control real soon! NO FUN!!!! :)Yep, you did open up a can of worms to say the least! I think Lowell and I in particular have had some very lively conversations back and forth while you were away. It has been MOST interesting for me. I hope it has been likewise for him.I only have one comment at this time about what you said and that involves whether to use the autopilot (AP) or not. First let me say that I agree totally with you that at least for the time being. In order to learn the mechanics of IFR flying, you must indeed learn how to do it manually.But at the same time, you also should never shy away from using the AP either for normal flying. I think that Lowell will probably agree with this too. After all that is what the pros do all the time. They rely heavily on the autopilot throughout most of the flight--especially in the heavies but even in the smaller aircraft.It is sort of like if you are driving a nail, there is certainly nothing wrong with using a hammer to do it. Beats the heck out of trying to use your fingers to push the nail in--even if you have the strength to do it!!!The AP does not replace the pilot. It just adds one more tool for the pilot to use. But the pilot is still in control and must know exactly what the AP is doing at all times. But the AP has a tremendous ability to make some very complex navigational computations far more quickly and more accurately than any human can do.I look forward to hearing your responses to what we've discussed. I am glad that we can help out. On top of that I have learned a few new things myself!Happy Flying!Bill MolonyAtlanta GA USAUnder the 27L Approach to KATL--the busiest airport in the world :)

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Hi Michael,Good catch. I missed that one. You are very right.But I think Lowell probably meant 360 but was confusing the number with the number of days in a year. Easy mistake to make.Happy Flying!Bill MolonyAtlanta GA USAUnder the 27L Approach to KATL--the busiest airport in the world :)

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Before I offer my suggestion, I want to be clear that I have not read through the entire thread. So if this is duplicated information, ignore me, please. I just want to offer a simple solution that should have you happy in a short amount of time...If you can gain access to some approach plates like at clearanceunlimited, you can see a strange symbol at the "outer marker". It looks like some concentric circles. Without getting too techincal it's a LOM (NDB) station and it can be tracked with the ADF needle. Judge (this will come through experience) from your HSI or EHSI course setting your relation to the ILS course. Keep an eye on the ADF needle and when it starts to point more to the direction of the ILS course bars you know it's time to start a turn towards the runway (even in IMC this works incredibly well). The ADF needle points toward the outer marker on the ILS path when it is tuned in to the LOM frequency. The needle will take you to this point, I promise. The more shallow the angle to the outermarker LOM the easier it will be to intercept and capture the localizer. I hope that makes sense. This works for me when I don't want to fly the entire published procedure turn and such. Of course if you want to be as real as it gets, fly the procedure turn. There is a lesson on it in the tutorials section of FS. Sorry I don't have any pictures to help with my explanation.Happy landings!:-kewl

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Guest allblack

WOW!I've been simming for some time, and have always intended to take some time and finally get to grips with the world of navigiation, but VOR's, NBD's, DME's etc have always had me running scared.Many's the time I've sat down with a few beers, and tried to get my head around this stuff, and 20 mins later given up.These posts have been fascinating to read, even if I understood only every eleventh word!!Before I was scared. Now I'm petrified !!I will keep trying, but honestly can't see how I will ever get to grips with all this stuff.I've looked at websites generally called "navigation for the stupid", but it seems no matter how much someone tries to simplify this, the fact remains that it's damn complicated.One day........I might be able to match it with you guys. Meantime, I remain in awe.CheersAllblack

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Guest SD Sim

Hi Allblack,It's really not all that bad. Don't be afraid. The worst thing that can happen is that you get totally lost. Then you just open up your GPS and fly to the nearest airport. Like I said earlier, the only thing you have to lose is your pride. The same could not be said in reality :(. So don't be afraid, turn off the GPS and tune in your radio. Everything will be OK.

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