Spoilers affected by yoke input???

[Guest logmecode3]

I noticed all the posts related to the spoilers.I was re-assigning a couple of yoke buttons to different functions today and I had the throttle quadrant displayed. While checking the limits of the yoke axises I noticed that when rotating the yoke full left (CCW), the spoilers would move from UP to slightly past ARM. When I rotated the yoke full right (CW), nothing happened.Has anyone else experienced this, or if you've not noticed, could you check?Perhaps this could be related to all the spoiler problems. If anyone does experience this, would this be a PMDG or FS9 issue? And, any ideas for a fix?--Jason T. BrooksYuba City, CA, USA

[Guest bobsk8]

I think what you are seeing is normal and doesn't have anything to do with the Spoiler problems. At low speeds, there is some spoiler action to act as another method to enhance the roll control besides the airlerons alone.The problem that many of us have is that the Spoilers do not deploy automatically anymore since the 800 update, even if you uninstall and reinstall everything. Strange but True!!

[crvm 0]

"The problem that many of us have is that the Spoilers do not deploy automatically anymore since the 800 update, even if you uninstall and reinstall everything. Strange but True!!" Bob this is untrue, the "Many" is who exactly? I have read "many" more folks who have no issues with deployemnt. Because one cannot hear *clicking* on the overhead while the "more" can what does this mean exactly? Likewise with the spoilers, I don't have the issue while some do but this only shows some type of placement-throttle messing-joystick mapping-calibration issue is at play here. It cannot work for some all the time and not for others when we have the exact sim here, not logical.Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

[Bob Scott 7,720]

I've seen anough traffic on the spoiler failure to auto-deploy problem to comfortably characterize the affected population as "many."It's not normal for the spoiler handle to move when the spoilerons are actuated by the yoke. Makes me wonder if you have dual axis assignments or something. I'll have a look at this, but it's definitely not normal.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC

[Bob Scott 7,720]

I just tried it out...if I manually deploy the spoilers with my PFC quadrant, then move the yoke, I see the spoiler control move with the yoke, as Jason describes, on left-aileron inputs only. Definitely not normal or realistic.I also note that it's easy to get the spoilers "confused" to where they do not behave predictably at all. Using the spoiler lever on the VC quadrant, I could deploy them, but not get them back up...took moving the throttles up out of idle to close the S/B. Clearly the spoiler logic is pretty much dorked here...arguably worse than before the update. On a rejected takeoff I simply can't get autospoiler deployment under any circumstances.One other bug...I can't get the parking brakes to set using the lever on the VC as long as I am holding the regular brakes via the pedals. Works normally with the 2D throttle quad lever or with the MS hotkey.All this experimentation was done with the 737-700 VC variant post 800/900 update.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC

[McCrash 3]

I haven't experienced this yoke'n-spoiler-quirk yet.I just tested now using the 737-700 VC variant and noticed nothing.I will my eyes keep looking and open. lolWaldo

[Guest bobsk8]

>>"The problem that many of us have is that the Spoilers do not>deploy automatically anymore since the 800 update, even if you>uninstall and reinstall everything. Strange but True!!">> Bob this is untrue, the "Many" is who exactly? I have read>"many" more folks who have no issues with deployemnt. >>Because one cannot hear *clicking* on the overhead while the>"more" can what does this mean exactly? Likewise with the>spoilers, I don't have the issue while some do but this only>shows some type of placement-throttle messing-joystick>mapping-calibration issue is at play here. It cannot work for>some all the time and not for others when we have the exact>sim here, not logical.>>>Best Wishes,>[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4]>[h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]>Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play>one on TV ;-)>>AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA>@535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows>Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |I have read quite a few posts of people that have had issues with the Spoiler deployment. I am not a software expert and don't pretend to be, ut when I see posts that have gone on for months on this forum raising this exact issue( spoilers for instance) and done all the home troubleshooting that I can do like yoke calibration, reinstalling the program, making test flight after test flight with all parametars being explored and eliminated one by one, and the problem is still there, I come to the conclusion that there is something not right with the software. I have not read any input on this Forum with any suggested solutions that have worked , so apparently everyone else is as "in the dark" as I am about these issues. Also keep in mind that this software has to run on various operating systems like XP, Windows 2000, XP Pro , etc and you can have software that runs perfectly on one system and doesn't run correctly on another. I experience this quite often in my profession. Tell me, for instance , what possibly could be the problem, with having an electrical switch click normally , installing an update, and immediately the switch stops clicking. Nothing else is changed, except the self installing update. I have no solution other than there must be something strange going on with the update. By the way, before we go much further in this discussion, I make my living troubleshooting very complex electronic systems, worth millions of dollars, so I am fairly familiar with how to logically solve technical problems.

[crvm 0]

Well I don't make a living testing but I think I can qualify in this regard Bob. Here is one major issue I think all should be able to agree upon1] There is simply no way for us to know exactly what each person is doing to see where the real issue is. People in general leave out many details explaining things, "Oh I forgot by the way I had done ..."2] Spoilers in the current setup is not the best and with the variations in people's setups we DO SEE many issues. Spoiler logic should not be so delicate as to cause speedbrake failure to deploy as you and others see. Now, these spoiler threads have been around for as long as this aircraft has been out. The forst release the spoliers were programed after the default FS setup, nothing special at all. Later on more logic was added which in turn created other issues. The latest seemed to be the most stable and for many of us it is but that is not to argue that this whole spoiler logic does not need to be redone because it does. So let's make a request that after the 744 when PMDG are to maybe do some more work on the 737 request that the logic be again looked into insted of having many interesting spoiler threads about who's deploys and who's does not. ;-)Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

[Guest bobsk8]

I think all of us want to find the answer to these problems like the spoiler issue, since it appears to me that all of us really like this PMDG product, or we wouldn't be on this forum. This is the best sim plane I have ever flown, and if has a bug or two, so what....I think what we also have to be careful about doing, is assuming that someone's complaint is either an attack on the product or something the user is doing wrong. I worked for a Japanese company for many years and the engineers in Japan, upon hearing of a problem from us, with one of their electronic products, would often act like it must be something that the customer was doing wrong. Time after time, this would turn out not to be the case, and they would eventually fix the issue at the factory. I think that many people that have the PMDG, and have spoiler issues are probably waiting for some kind of indication by PMDG, that this issue and some of the other minor issues will eventually be addressed in some way. It is fruitless for people to waste their time, and half tear their PC apart, reinstall the software multiple times, etc... looking to solve a problem that is not either the fault of their equipment or the way they are using it. In reading the many posts about the spoiler issues on this Forum, I was reminded of the phrase that we have all heard all too often, " Where there is smoke, there is probably fire" :) Back to boring holes in the sky.

[Guest logmecode3]

I agree with Bob. I think we just want PMDG to indicate that they're either working on, will be working on, or are not working on a fix.When a golfer has a slice or a hook, s/he can do one of three things: 1. Rotate the body prior to the swing so that the slice or hook results in the proper placement of the ball upon landing (work-around); 2. Quit golfing; or 3. Fix the swing so that the ball flies straight.I prefer the last one. I agree with Bob that we (those with spoiler problems) are "many". Heck, Randy, to quote you, "Now, these spoiler threads have been around for as long as this aircraft has been out." That's got to be some sort of indication of a problem.If I were the Captain of a Boeing 737-800, and reported to the maintenance crew that the spoilers did not auto-deploy upon landing as per design, I think they would fix it ASAP, and probably without assuming that it was user error. Now, I know that I, nor probably not many others, can claim to have the training and/or experience of a bonafide 737 pilot, but I can tell you that, procedurally, I am doing nothing that should cause the failure of the auto-spoilers upon landing. If Bob says that he re-installed and checked for function immediately before and after the update and had the problem only after the update, I believe him and furthermore agree that, based on his test, it's likely a PMDG software issue (though it does not affect everyone).I am happy that some don't have the problem, that's great! But I still think it needs to be looked into (at least).Just my two cents.BTW, I did see that PMDG acknowledges this problem. Per the PMDG 737-800/900 Maintenance Status Board: "ITEM 007: SPOILERS FAIL TO DEPLOY ON LANDING".--Jason T. BrooksYuba City, CA, USA

[crvm 0]

Ah Jason, see you are from my old home town, good ol Yuba City. Yes these threads have been around but for different reasons. All one needs to do is do a search on past posts to see Mr Randazzo discuss this issue throughly already and PMDG do not need to discuss it anymore since it has been many times. Here is one from Rob http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...58813&mode=fullLenny-Thanks for your additional feedback- and the english is better than most.To further the discussion- it might be helpful if I re-explain (again!) the theory behind the spoiler controller in the PMDG airplane...We had a different system in FS2002- but with the advent of FS9, MSFS made some changes to the spoiler control logic that make it very difficult to work with from a developer standpoint. I won't go into alot of the details there- but suffice to say that it's something we are still pushing via our contacts on the MSFS team to get addressed... (more on that another time.)The manner in which spoilers are modeled in MSFS assumes that the airplane has a single spoiler mechanism that is controlled in full range while in the air or on the ground. (i.e.: You can go from 0-100% in all regimes of flight.)On the 737, however- this is not true. There are some spoilers that will only deploy when the WOW (Weight on Wheels) switch is depressed- and the remainder of the spoiler plates will only deploy through a limited range while in flight.In order to model this in FS2002, we used series of animation sequences within 3DStudio, and then by programmatically limiting the spoiler limits we could animate the spoiler movement from 0 - in-flight limit while in the air..and 0-full while on the ground.Then came FS9......In order to work around the "kludge" that became the FS9 controller- we found that we had to dramatically modify the interaction between the mouse-click, spoiler controller, animation sequences and joystick control. Even after a few hundred hours worth of work we were unable to come up with a desirable result that did not also require a complete rebuild of the airplane animation and center console code....So what we have in the airplane is a "compromise" between our desire to model the system effectively while not completely disabling the MSFS spoiler logic....From the standpoint of the guy who wrote that section of code- it's my greatest source of annoyance- a bit like accidentally painting a dimple on Mona Lisa.... The key is finding a way to overhaul the code without all the negative side effects. No small task!So best practices for the spoilers are as follows:1) Arm/Disarm using the mouse...2) Make certain that your throttle is well tuned.3) Make sure you are on the idle detent at touchdown unless conditions prohibit.We are designing a spoiler controller for the 747-400 that starts out by taking the MSFS weaknesses into account. Also- because it's design does not include the original work-arounds for FS2002- it isn't nearly as limited in scope as the controller on the NG... So we won't have this problem on the next airplane- and the lessons learned there can be ported back easily- if i do my homework correctly!As always around here- we are always tinkering....Robert S. RandazzoPrecision Manuals Development Groupwww.precisionmanuals.com I think this settles the question good enough to end this thread? But of course in a little time we will be discussion it again ;-)Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

[Guest bobsk8]

In the mean time, I posted this on another spoiler thread tonight, I found that positioning the throttle at mid position, then disconnecting the A/T at about 50-100 AGL, and immediately after switching off the A/T , pulling the throttle arm to zero, will caused the spoilers to deploy every time. This is the procedure I had originally used with zero problems until I read that you should not turn off the A/T because it would switch automatically. It was after that ( which is about the same time that I downloaded the 800, that my spoilers started working incorrectly. Apparently this auto switch off doesn't allow enough time for the engine thrust to decay and the spoilers will not deploy.

[teropa 4]

I think what you are seeing with the left aileron + spoilers working is the old FS bug.If you have spoilerons_available (or something similar) set to 1 in the aircraft.cfg, SOMEHOW FS will break the spoilers loose on the LEFT side only (turn yoke left). I've seen this in many, many different aircraft, but don't know the cause or the solution. Sometimes it seems to be related to flaps. If you have any flaps set, the left side spoiler will deploy a little. Obviously, FS core programming has some pretty annoying quirks that would have to be looked at by Microsoft, but they are (as usual!) ignoring this.This problem was present in FS2002 already.Tero