LOWI, SPD Restriction/KPT1Z

[744pilot 0]

Hello,As you can see at the pic. it says "MAX. IAS 154KTs with a bank angle of atleast 25 degrees, after passing INN NDB MAX. IAS 250KTs until 11000.But does that mean I have to maintain 154 KTs up to INN NDB???It doesn't seems to be logical, because I have to pass INN NDB at or above 9400. So, basicaly I have to keep the flaps extended up to about 9400 feet.Do I understand this correct?? :(And Should I use MAX. RATE or MAX. ANGLE of climb????Thanks,http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/100948.jpg

[Guest tmetzinger]

I can't make out the picture very well, but you definitely want to climb the highest vertical distance in the shortest lateral distance, so use MAX ANGLE climb. No faster than 154 and no steeper than 25, so set that as your climb speed and you can retract your flaps as long as 154 is outside the low speed caution zone.

[744pilot 0]

Thanks Tim.Your are a great help.About the picture quality, I will rescan. :)

[744pilot 0]

Here, I hope that this is a bit sharper.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/100977.jpg

[hseilz747 1]

As far as I know, Innsbruck is mainly an airport for smaller turboprop- and commuter-jet-aircraft which have no problem with maintaining that relatively low climb speed.But even with a 737 or A320 you could set the acceleration altitude to 9500ft or so and initially climb with V2+10 and T/O flaps.Holger.

[Guest wee_davie_2612]

Holger,Just FYI, Innsbruck can quite easily handle big jets, even upto 767 size. Have a look at airliners.net and you'll see pics of them.Ramon,The speed restriction is there because any faster and with a bank angle any less than that stated would result in a turn radius to great to fit in the Inn Valley, in other words bust those limits and your going to end up as another CFIT statistic.Also keeping that low speed high power climb makes you climb like a scalded cat which is usually a good thing when in mountainous terrain. I also find a stadard climb profile will quite easily get you out of Innsbruck, I haven't found the need for a max angle climb yet.To answer your original question Ramon, You can retract your flaps on schedule as long as you don't bust that 195kt speed restriction. I'll normally leave flaps 1 out through the turn at AB anyway and then clean up when able after that. It doesn't take long to get from AB to INN at 195kts either so it's not like your crawling for a long time. You'll normally find that after INN you'll be able to accelerate all the way up to normal climb speed (ATC permiting) as that 500ft will breeze past.Take it easy and watch out for those mountains :)David

[Guest Darren Howie]

You will find that the 154KT limitation comes into its own when you fly the procedure on one engine.Any faster than 154 and any AOB <25 means you will not remain within the boundaries of which the SID was designed.I would imagine most companies flying out of LOWI would have their own company escape procedures for the problem of an engine failure when flying off this Rwy at LOWI.I have flown it in our Dash sim on several occassions on one engine and it scared the crap out of me hand flying that corner on one engine and 30 deg looking at a wall or rock!Darren

[744pilot 0]

Thanks David.I realy have to look out for those mountains, as they are realy high.And there is glider activity up to 11000' ;)

[hseilz747 1]

>Holger,>>Just FYI, Innsbruck can quite easily handle big jets, even>upto 767 size. Have a look at airliners.net and you'll see>pics of them.Thanks David for the Info. I already knew that Thomas Cook for example operated 757s there, but even 767s... wow (I guess LOC/DME west with a 747-400 is still a crazy simulator experiment :-lol).However, wouldn't these heavies use different SIDs, like those to RTT NDB (less dangerous, following the valley) or at least receive special clearances? 154kts is quite a low speed for a fully loaded 767.Holger.

[Guest pagotan]

Hi Gentlemen,With all due respect for the initiator of this thread I would like to point out that he should actualize his procedures. KPT1Z has been replaced by LEMSO1J some times ago. KPT1Z does not exist anymore.The speed restriction remains until INN however on the new procedure.Michael

[Guest wee_davie_2612]

Hey Holger,I think your right on that one, a turn at that speed would probably be pretty close to limits on a 767. I'd imagine that such aircraft flying out of rwy 08 and departing north or west would fly out on the LLZ OEJ to RTT and fly continue on a departure route from there on a KOGOL DP route.Likewise I don't think a large aircraft would try the tight turn at Zirl if departing rwy 26, they'd probably head out to the turn (or departure) at Wildermieming.Ramon, Glad it helped some :)All the best,David

[744pilot 0]

Hello again,I was practicing around LOWI and I ask myself this question: Should I use VNAV or FLCH??? And LOWI has different SIDS like this one, so my question actualy counts for all sids for LOWI.Thanks,

[Guest wee_davie_2612]

Hello Ramon,It really depends on the situation as to which climb mode to use. At LOWI I would probably use VNAV if I had all the speed/alt restrictions loaded up in the flightplan and just fly the FD needles. As there are no hard restrictions on the departure nor any at or below restriction then LVL CHG would work just as well as both modes will fly a N1 climb to INN NDB.I this case the only difference between the two would be that after you pass INN NDB VNAV would change the speed itself whereas with LVL CHG you'd have to crank the speed up yourself.You could also try flying the departure the old fashion way with the raw data :D It's actually easier flying that departure manually, I find, in less advanced aircraft who still have old steam gauges (or even electronic steam gauges). A good aircraft for it is the DF C310 'cause it's got all the gauges you'd need although you can still get busy with the radios if you don't think well ahead, especially on the arrivals.Back to your question. It's really six on one, half a dozen the other in this situation. Most of the time (and I mean on any DP) VNAV works better because it'll look after the speed for you and can handle altitude restrictions.Hope it helps,Cheers,David

[744pilot 0]

Thanks allot Mr. David.BTW. I personaly fly the KPT1Z manualy, just like you sayt.I to, think it's easier to handfly the A/C. ;)