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JSACKS

Role of FD on hand-flown ILS app and landing ?

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When you hand-fly an approach to TD tracking an ILS on the ND using the FD switched on, i.e., without using the CMD active, is the FD supposed to provide pitch and roll guidance for the ILS approach? I am unclear about whether or how the FD works in this regard. Appreciate clarification or guidance, thanks!Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Pitch & roll. FD always responds to whatever horizontal/vertical mode are engaged at the moment. Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2


Michael J.

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Erm,...sorry, still not quite clear. So the FD would not actually recognize a radio frequency for the ILS then....?Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Jonathan,It sounds like you need some really basic info on the FD. Go to page 6 on this forum and find the topic titled: AFDS Modes using Flight Director Only. If you read the whole thing you should be OK. Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2


Michael J.

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Jonathan,Yes, the F/D by itself will provide pitch a roll commands to follow an ILS. APP must be armed. After LOC and GS engagement the FMA roll mode will be VOR/LOC(green) and the pitch mode will be GS(green).Try it.Floyd


John Floyd

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Floyd:But does not your suggested procedure involve activating the autopilot?In any event, I tried an ILS into KSFO 28R just now with the AP active and APP active. It went well and the FD displayed the pitch and roll.I then tried it with the AP switched off, so I could hand fly, but with the FD still clicked to on and the FD display also seemed to indicate the path to track. I had tried this earlier with no apparent success, which is what led me to post here. I guess the FD is "on" all the time regardless of whether the AP is ON or OFF. Otherwise it would not be able to display the pitch and roll modes to follow, correct?Just the ramblings of an amateur.....(!)Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Jonathan, I had similar questions and there's a thread which will pretty much answer everything you want to know and then some about the 737's F/D. Having APP armed on the MCP is not the same as having the A/P on. It simply means this mode is armed but the autopilot is not "connected" to the control surfaces and thus it is not actually flying the aircraft. It's armed to fly the aircraft in app mode, but not actually doing it. :) The A/P would only be engaged if you were to press either one of the CMD buttons, and even so for there to be an autoland you need both of these on and both radios tuned to the ILS freq as you probably know by now. Having APP armed in the MCP will "tell" the flight director that it's supposed to provide pitch and roll guidance for this mode of flight (following the tuned GS and LOC) reardless of who's actually in control of the aircraft - you or the autopilot. So to answer your question: the F?D will provide you with the pitch and roll necessary to maintan a stabilized approach provided you have the radio tuned correctly and APP armed in the MCP. Read the FMA and it will tell you in what mode you're in.Hope it helps.Cheers,Victorhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/800driver.jpg


Cheers,
Victor M. Lima
 

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Guest frankathl

Hi Jonathan,Very glad to see you posting on use of the F/D without A/P, as I have many of the same queries(from your other posts, too). I second Michael's recommendation of the thread on "AFDS Modes Using Flight Director Only", as it has some excellent responses from Michael(the same!), Kris Heslop, and Floyd. It does address many of the issue of flying with the Flight Director only(although I'm sure we'll think of more, eh? :-)).Good luck and keep up those questions!Cheers,Frank

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Jonathan,No, my suggestion does not involve activating the autopilot. Autopilot disengaged. F/D ON. If the F/D only is ON then on the PFD you will see a green FD. If the autopilot were engaged then you would see a green CMD on the PFD. In F/D mode only, the pilot manually controls the airplane by selecting the appropriate roll and pitch modes.Try your ILS 28R at KSFO again with the autopilot engaged. Once the airplane is established on the localizer and GS, disengage the autopilot and follow the F/D command bars for the rest of the approach. The green CMD above the PFD's attitude display will change to a green FD.Understand, you can fly the 737NG with the autopilot, FD or Autothottles engaged or not engaged or have any combination engaged.In normal situations you would fly with as a minimum the FD and AT engaged or the Autopilot, FD and AT engaged.Floyd


John Floyd

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Victo, Floyd and Frank:OK, NOW I geddit--and it works too! I just flew the ILS into KSFO 28R twice using just the FD and MCP settings as you gentlemen have described and it worked with textbook precision right down to landing.Thanks for explaining this in "plain English" to me. This is what I really needed. Sometimes the manuals (which I've printed out in their entirety and filed in a 400 page binder), while most impressive and informative, are too "dense" and a bit over-technical, and one simpler aviation folk such as me miss the forest for the trees.Armed (no pun intended!) with this info, and also with guidance from Michal to that aforementioned FD thread, it now is starting to make much more sense.I never fully appreciated what the FD really is or how it works until recently, nor did I understand or appreciate why the MCP is called a "Mode Control Panel" either. I was one of those FS hobbyists who thought that the autopilot IS the MCP (!)I am also studying the FMA more closely these days and have learned to identify most of the annunciations for each of the three different modes displayed. Anyway, thanks once again. You will NOT be hearing from me again on this subject because I have gained enough insight from this thread to start understanding how things work with the FD. It is very gratifying to visit the forum and not just learn the answer to a specific question, but understand and get some deeper knowledge about why things happen and what happens in certain circumstances.Cheers!Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Guest diajohn2

Jonathon, I am shocked you would even ask. You landed the United 735 using the FD like it was something you do every day. Maybe you were busy, but the APP button was depressed but not the AP button.For anyone reading this, Jonathan has landed the full motion simulator using the FD extremely well. I am sure the tires smoked but only lightly because his landing was a real greaser.

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> Jonathon, I am shocked you would even ask.Frankly I did not want to be the first to make the same observation but was also wondering about Jonathan's recent questions (not only this one). It is hard to understand since his questions really touch on the very basic knowledge of the aircraft and he apparently handled full motion sim so expertly (I read his very good report). Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2


Michael J.

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Guest diajohn2

That he did. I was sitting in the sim with he and Bill Grabowski for two hours and was amazed at how well they handled the simulator. Bill, by the way, is a real world pilot and a/c owner while Jonathan is an armchair pilot, although, one with a outstanding knowledge of procedures.Alas, my effort was less sterling but no-one died although the passengers could be heard muttering as they deplaned.

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Hi, Mr. Noe, how are you?!I know that some questions I have posed are indeed very basic. Some things in the FS world I know really very well; others less so. The stuff I study closely I have learned well, but there are certain areas where there are gaps in my knowledge and in learning the NG in particular, these gaps have become more evident to me (and to others!). I understand many principles of things like the AP and various functions, but the FD has always been a bit of a mystery to me. It's getting clearer now. Another area of some bafflement to me was the precise takeoff and climbout procedure although some of that has been precipitated by the fact that I have found it physically very difficult to do everything with my right hand (I use a stick, not a yoke), and it's difficult to keep the a/c trimmed for climbout, take your hand off the stick, and twiddle the MCP dials for things like SPD without going into a dive!The ILS autoland approach procedure in the NG is also relatively complex and took some learning with dual channel, etc., and the procedure is critical too.I guess that flying the UA sim at Denver was relatively straightforward because much of it was hand flying and things were set up for us to step into. We didn't use the FMC much and I hardly used the AP except during hi altitude cruise. I did observe the FD throughout all the 737 flights and it worked in all phases beeautifully but honestly I didn't notice any interaction with it and the MCP. Don't ask me why, I just didn't. My main concern was perfect ILS tracking and a great landing if possible.So, I CAN fly, but I just don't necessarily understand all of the functions and interactions of systems such as the AP, FD, and FMC. As I said, the PMDG NG is surfacing these gaps but I am learning the whole picture, better, and step by step, as a result of my own hard study and simming and forums such as this.Thanks to everybody !JS


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

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Guest diajohn2

Hi Mr. Sacks,I imagine you were busy enjoying flying that bird to notice how anything interacted. Sure seemed that way to me.If you love the PMDG, you will also enjoy the DF727 which is made for flying the old way with basic systems. I have also recently purchased and am learning to crashland the LDS 763. This hobby just keeps you going. My new CH pro pedals also make flying much more interesting. No more wandering around the runway on landing.Maybe, I just spend far too much time with this computer.

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