ILS Approach with the B737-600

[Guest tomahawk_pa38]

Luke,I have had a similar situation going into EGGD (Bristol) from the west for r/w 27 the proceudre for which brings you over the BRI, then a left turn onto the r/w heading. It always drops me lined up at about 5 miles and I'm far to high. (Think there's a similar problem with the Lanak arrival for EGPF (Glasgow) ILS r/w 23. What I do is before I get to the airport, I select the Crse for the ILS heading (232 for Glasgow) then set the reciprocal (+ 5 degress to give me a bit of space) in the HDG box (057). Then just as I'm getting to the end of the STAR before the LNAV turn onto the r/w heading, I hit Hdg Select and fly that for about a minute(Can't do that too far out for Glasgow due to high ground though), then turn onto the rw heading manually far enough out for a proper intercept.By the way, are you flying the 600 ? Only I only get the nav display on mine and don't get the two round dials alongside like you have shown in your pictures ?

[Guest lbowes]

Hi DaveThanks for your post, I'll try something similar for my EGCC arrival. And in answer to your question I was flying in the B737-600.ThanksLuke

[Guest aarskringspier]

>Luke,>>I have had a similar situation going into EGGD (Bristol) from>the west for r/w 27 the proceudre for which brings you over>the BRI, then a left turn onto the r/w heading. It always>drops me lined up at about 5 miles and I'm far to high. >(Think there's a similar problem with the Lanak arrival for>EGPF (Glasgow) ILS r/w 23. What I do is before I get to the>airport, I select the Crse for the ILS heading (232 for>Glasgow) then set the reciprocal (+ 5 degress to give me a bit>of space) in the HDG box (057). Then just as I'm getting to>the end of the STAR before the LNAV turn onto the r/w heading,>I hit Hdg Select and fly that for about a minute(Can't do that>too far out for Glasgow due to high ground though), then turn>onto the rw heading manually far enough out for a proper>intercept.>>By the way, are you flying the 600 ? Only I only get the nav>display on mine and don't get the two round dials alongside>like you have shown in your pictures ?You can change the display modes if you have the 800-900 series upgrade. it carries over to the 600-700 series.

[Guest jettjokk]

Hi Luke,Since I have not seen this mentioned yet in this thread I'll throw in my 2 cents. My usual goal is to use LNAV to turn onto the ILS heading and click VOR/LOC button as the localizer indicator activates. To accomplish this whether I select the RNAV or ILS before taking off (this is a guess at best) or when ATC starts to vector me, I NEXT switch the Nav display to map mode, tighten the range to 5-10 nm, and using the LEGS page of the FMC step through the approach. If I see a late turn onto the ILS heading I click on the waypoints in the NAV display and find one that extends that turn out. The waypoint ID's can be hard to read, sometimes on top of eachother, but a little further out there is always one I can read. Then I just insert into the FMC to extend the approach out. It may not be real or the best practice but it works for me.DanS

[Guest canyonblue737]

using the FMC to "extend" your turn on by flying to a further fix is unrealistic... but it is very realistic to extend the runway course centerline to infinity and use HDG and LNAV to join the localizer and then once on it to arm VOR/LOC or APP as appropriate. see my other post in this thread under "canyonblue" for more details.

[Guest jettjokk]

Sorry it has taken so long to respond to your post and advice. Judging from the 2nd post you are a real world Southwest 737 pilot, correct? Good to have us pretend fliers get some real world input from time to time. Thanks.When I tried the procedure you explained, the result was that the entire STAR and all but the FAF on the IAP were eliminated. It also resulted in a somewhat late turn onto final approach course if one was trying to stay in LNAV. This CAN be done with careful speed/altitude management. I assume here that real airlines like this technique as it makes the flight shorter and burns less fuel, right?I know I'm just not being true to life trying to follow a STAR/IAP but I enjoy watching that baby fly itself (laterally at least), hence "use LNAV until I intercept the ILS". The extra flight time/distance has helped me avoid using the speed brakes to get her down and slow her down.I get away with it using FS9 ATC since once they clear my STAR and tell me to "call the tower when inbound" there are no more heading or altitude change requests. Again, probably not very realistic.Anyway, thanks again for the advice.DanS

[Guest tomahawk_pa38]

Smitty,I don't seem to have an option of adding an extended fix on my FMC. Is this only on the 800/900 series ?

[Guest canyonblue737]

you did it right, but you are misunderstanding why you are doing it i believe...when ATC begins to vector you just before the end of a STAR you are no longer flying the STAR. it's over so there is no problem eliminating it in the FMC. once being vectored it is normal to be cleared to join the localizer 3-5 miles outside the FAF, although if the airport is busy with traffic it may be much further out. You could if you wanted to extend the centerline of the localizer off one of the further out step down fixes but the problem with that is if ATC turns you onto the localizer INSIDE your outermost fix in the CDU, the FMC will not progress on the approach which could lead to trouble if you want to fly the missed via LNAV/VNAV. since you *know* ATC won't turn you onto the localizer INSIDE the FAF you simply can extend the centerline off the FAF and be safe in knowing that the approach will progress normally in the FMC.if you want to simulate this I would do the following...begin to vector yourself for the localizer just prior to the last fix of the STAR. have your vectors designed so you intercept the localizer 5 miles outside of the FAF, which you extended the runway centerline off of just after starting vectors. You can do this by simply watching the NAV display although in real life it is ATC doing it of course. When you are on your final intercept heading, for example 040 to intercept a localizer with a 000 heading inbound... arm the LNAV. you will be flying in HDG with LNAV armed and then the airplane will so smoothly capture the localizer COURSE (not the localizer itself) you won't believe it. then once INBOUND and tracking the localizer COURSE you then arm VOC/LOC or APP and turn off LNAV. the airplane will then "capture" the localizer itself but since it is already tracking it won't have the tendency to chase or bracket the localizer that it would have if you simply armed the VOR/LOC or APP mode while on an intercept heading.hopefully this makes some sense and yeah I get to do it with some LUV at work...

[Guest jettjokk]

Again I must apologize for taking so long to answer. I did what you suggested and since it was a short no ATC flight, it happened exactly as you predicted. As I think about it, what I was doing, using FS9 ATC and some approach changes at vector from ATC time, I still had a good FMC path onto the final appraoch course. In fact the FMC would do the turn until I saw the localizer bug turn from outline pink to shaded pink. If I hit vor/loc before that lnav would be shut off by the fmc. Also like I said once I switched approaches with ATC, they let me fly any course I wanted to land, only telling me to contact the tower when inbound. Usually this clearance would direct to the next waypoint in the fmc anyway so no turns or anything. But also here I can implement your method and skip the first couple IAP waypoints like the IAF and the next one or two. I am going to try this as a slightly different way to approach. I will have to switch from lnav to hdg but that seems common.Thanks again for the real world input and boy am I jealous!!DanS

[Guest aarskringspier]

Wow makes for a nice and smooth approach, thanks for the input. For some reason it took a couple of flights to click in my head as to what you were saying but once it did it sure makes approaches nice.

[Guest canyonblue737]

>Wow makes for a nice and smooth approach, thanks for the>input. For some reason it took a couple of flights to click in>my head as to what you were saying but once it did it sure>makes approaches nice.no doubt. the VOR/LOC and APP modes in real life will do a ok intercept and of course eventually totally nail the localizer/glideslope but there is a bit wandering in particular if the vector was a big one, ie. greater than 30 degrees different than the inbound localizer course. we try to make everything as comfortable for the folks in back who pay our way so we try to use LNAV to join and it is so smooth... then once tracking inbound switching to VOR/LOC or APP is seemless and causes no wandering.

[Guest aarskringspier]

Yeah, once it clicked and I understood the procedure you were describing I couldnt believe how sweet the plane made the transition. Once again thanks a ton, its made approaches so nice.

[Guest ntsmith]

From what I know of Ryanair, a visual approach would be the usual procedure where ever possible. Saves a few bucks !Kind regardsNigel Thomas-Smithhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg