IRS system 747/What about 737?

[Guest Boaz]

Robert S. Randazzo I know you have written this before, but I think you should pin your last post in this topic! I was really blown away by the efforts, skills and business know how you guys put into this new jet.I am very greateful that all of this is done with my favorite aircraft, but I am also surprised as to just how much time and work you put in this!You are one amazing crew!Boaz...

[Guest carlonch]

We volatile people salute you!Hi everyone:Very interesting discusion on this delicate matter.I

[Guest tmetzinger]

>Tim>>I think any author/artist/software developer will understand>what I mean with the following comment:>>"I keep looking at the NG code and thinking: i can do that>SOOOOOO much better now."No kidding... It's why when people ask if I can do programming - I say "sure, if you hold a gun to my head." It's nearly impossible to abandon anything you developed.There's a school system in western kentucky that STILL uses a BASIC program I wrote when I was a high school junior to manage and print their daily absentee list. Thank god they don't know where to find me.Looking forward to the queen,

[Guest EDCS]

I agree with Jaime.My favorite airliner is the 737.So PMDG think about your roots in MSFS. How many virtual and real NG driver use your product?Your first release was the NG. I use it since the first early days after release and changed from DF 734 to PMDG. At the moment there is no competive alternate at the market and DF will build up the classic. I am very happy to see, that two top developers dont fight against. I believe, the 744 is the next milestone in FS and I will put my hands on here yoke. But the most time I fly short or middle range flights in Germany or Europe with the 737. So come on PMDG take the NG on the same level. After a 1 hour flight on a Lutfhansa 737-800 full motion simulator in Berlin I am so impressed about the performance of the PMDG NG. I believe so many NG driver here waiting for the next step. Take your time and make it. At the the same time you anounce it you will have my preorder fo it.Greetings from BerlinStefan

[Guest Andrea]

Boeing 737 600/700/800/900 NG family is a reference for the most part of simmers that fly with commercial midrange aircarfts, that are the most part of simmers in general (looking at recent surveys on the web).My hope, probably possible only whith the new coming version of MS FS, is to be able to buy from PMDG (at full price) a new (from scratch) improved version of this everlasting aircraft.Andreahttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/800driver.jpghttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

[Guest]

>>Also I didnt meant my post to sound as any kind of rant and i>didnt mention that upgrades should be free or small cost ones.>I am a developer just like you and I know somewhat how>software bussiness models run. Things cost what they cost. At>the end you have to get a certain amount of profit for your>working time whatever you spend it working on, either a new>plane or an upgrade. This was not the point of my post.>yet you demand lifetime free upgrades of every product to the latest and greatest no matter the cost of development...>I would like me to buy a 737 and expect it to be maintained>for a longer life-cycle, with improvements, updates and>upgrades. I would like 737 1.0, 737 2.0, 737 3.0, etc... This>is completly independant to the pricing. If it is not>technicaly possible to evolve a product at the needed pace to>keep the bussiness up, you can then go for a second product, a>third, a fourth...but it not justifies forgetting about the>first one. Dont tell me this is not possible from the>bussiness point of view since it happens with thousands of>software projects, being one man projects, small groups of>developers or big companies. Piracy is over every piece of>software, and i might add that there is a lot more loyalcy to>FS addon developers from users than in any other software>areas.>It doesn't happen in "thousands" of projects, especially not in highly complex ones.In fact, in the vast majority of software projects customers have to commit to paid for support contracts and mandatory regular upgrade fees in order to be allowed to purchase the product in the first place.You apparently know little about the software development business.You expect PMDG (for example) to maintain several products at the leading edge of technology for free indefinitely when maintaining even one product at that point would drain their resources and mean the end of the company.Yes, hardcore MSFS users are more loyal and less likely to use pirated software than most gamers, but they're only a very small part of the total userbase. And even among them, piracy is rife.>I have PSS A320 too. Did a great job when i bought it. But has>bugs, and many things could be improved. But again it has been>completly dropped (development stopped less tha a year later>of release). The code wont be touched any more. Now some otherFor those same economic reasons. The project is complete within the scope PSS set out to model it and works well for the vast majority of customers. It's simply not economically viable for them to invest more resources into its development and maintenance at this stage.>addon developer will have to spend full time to develop an>A320 from 0. That developer does it because he knows PSS is>now lacking. And it will happen again the same song, and a>third A320 will be completly developed again. In total it is a>lot of time wasted. If PSS would kept A320 upgraded some more>the other addon developer would do another different products.>So what we are stuck with is a lot of addon developers>developing the same addons again and again on different>timeframes.>Maybe if customers were to commit to pay a decent amount (reflecting cost+ of development) for upgrades PSS would do so.But as the general attitude among the punters (including you!) is that everything should be free that's not possible for them.PSS tried it with the 777, they got massive backlash and gave up on the idea.And no, others would still do a 320 if they thought it would sell.Wilco started development on a 320 after PSS announced theirs for example. They saw the interest in the design PSS generated and decided to get part of the market.>This is a personal feeling I am getting. Im not even stating>which is good which is bad. I just would like more continuity>on the products instead of volatile products. I bought windows>95, and then 98, and then XP, and there will be more to come.>I have not been forced to switch to Linux because of a nice>little feature i loved to use when windows XP didnt came.>Imagine having to switch OS each couple of years.>And you paid for those OS upgrades, or did you... If you didn't you either got them as gifts or you use pirated copies.Even Microsoft can't give you free upgrades forever, despite their multibillion dollar revenue and tens of thousands of people. In fact, those people and that revenue exist in large part because customers pay for upgrades.>Now 747 comes with great features that 737 can have too but it>is very possible the 737 wont be touched again and i will have>to wait for someone else to do it (and what is worst, think>it) from scratch. I dont have the right to tell PMDG what to>do but i feel sad and i do have a point that can be discussed.>Why there is no user fidelity based on a product instead of on>a addon company in the FS addon world?>Good question. Maybe because customers like you have no idea of the cost of developing software.They seem to think the development of these addons doesn't cost anything, and forget that the people doing that development for a living have to pay the rent.In part that's caused by the piracy that's so rampant elsewhere. People aren't used to paying for software, they just download it using the current favourite P2P program or else it's included as hidden cost in the purchase price of their computer.Kids might get a legal package of a game as a gift for a birthday, again they never see the pricetag.Many people in the customerbase never have worked a day in their lives, never had to pay the rent or groceries.They live in a world where food appears on the table like magic every night and hot water comes out of the shower when they open the tap. They never ask themselves how this happens.They don't know the cost of living because they're shielded from that cost.The numbers mentioned for development time seem reasonable for a product of this scope.If PMDG has to feed 10 people from their sales they need to (if for all of them it's a fulltime job) raise about 400.000 dollars a year at least just to pay their staff. That doesn't include the other cost of doing business, software and hardware, research, etc. etc.Yet people expect them to give up 80% of their development effort to providing lifetime free upgrades to their products...

[Guest]

IF (and that's a big IF) the vast majority of customers were willing to pay the price, I'm certain PMDG would consider it.BUT (and that's an even bigger BUT) in this particular industry the VAST majority of customers would not be willing to pay the price.In fact, they would publicly scream their outrage at the betrayal of them by that company for daring to charge them for that upgrade.In the real world of commercial software development where I work, mandatory upgrades and service contracts are the norm.Our customers pay around

[Guest Erups]

>Tim>>I think any author/artist/software developer will understand>what I mean with the following comment:>>"I keep looking at the NG code and thinking: i can do that>SOOOOOO much better now.">>Any work of art is never finished...And i may add: as a work of art, once you declare it finshed, be it or not, you will be unwilling to remake it again.It's something like "once i did it, it's done; i don't wanna to it all over again".But this is acceptable for an artist, not in case of a commercial developer.At least this is my point of view.So when the 744 will be rolled out, and the developing core of PMDG will be free again (and after a nice vacation), i hope you will take into consideration a possible 737N

[Guest Erups]

>There's a school system in western kentucky that STILL uses a>BASIC program I wrote when I was a high school junior to>manage and print their daily absentee list. Thank god they>don't know where to find me.Hahahah!A pity one of the best ever computer fun stories site is in italian, you wouldn't understand.But there are so many of these things around the world, you'd be amazed.I bet there is still someone on the face of the earth using some cobol thing programmed in the 60s by one of my uncles :D

[Guest jacaru]

Im not sure you are right on that pricing scheme. I think its a bit hard. We are forgetting than new users appear continously that will buy the most recent version. Every FS release is a boost of fresh new people. We have to count with the grow factor, on which every business is build upon. Marketing, appealing more users, etc...Currently only releasing new products is used to attract new users. Jaime.

[Guest jacaru]

Your whole post just makes me think you dont understand english or at least you didnt understood anything i said. I never said lifetime free upgrades, just to start with...Jaime.

[Guest]

That's the pricing scheme the company I work for uses, scaled down to the price of the 737...And we too get new customers constantly, at probably about the same rate as PMDG relative to the total customer base.

[Guest cplasch]

I'm sorry- so many people have responded and my view is similar to several, but I had to chime in. I most definitely feel that the PMDG 737NG 6/7/8/9 has changed the way most of us sim... I for one am hooked on this amazing airplane. I took the dive long ago into the "payware" realm, and have really enjoyed the "evolution" of product improvements. Do I feel "slighted" that past items that I have purchased didn't get upgraded? Not in the least. I got my use out of them, and still enjoy some of them today. PMDG's 737's have so greatly increased my enjoyment of this hobby (and lets remember, it IS a hobby) that I know I will definitely continue to support PMDG with my support as a loyal customer. Are the 737's expensive? Yes... I initially "freaked out" about dropping that kind of coin for an add-on, and agonized for weeks whether I should or shouldn't. Did I in the end receive value for my dollar? ABSOLUTELY UNRESERVEDLY yes! I LOVE this airplane, because it really taught me something about real world aviation. Would I buy another re-developed 737 from PMDG? IN A HEARTBEAT.I will continue to watch with interest what all of you at PMDG do, and I'm grateful that a talented group of developers like you do what you do.Happy Flying,Chris

[Guest]

I understand English quite well thank you very much.And I got your point perfectly. Once people start giving out free upgrades the backlash from customers when those free upgrades stop is far more severe than when they were to never give them at all.Dreamfleet were called traitors to their customers when they decided to not redesign the 737-400 for FS2004 and give it away for free.PSS were called worse when they announced the same relating to their 747 and 777.Ernie Alston bore the full brunt when he announced FSBuild2 would be commercial rather than free.Pete Dowson was almost driven to abandon FSUIPC because of the threats and insults he got when he asked for donations to allow him to continue development (he went commercial only because donations didn't work, he got a few hundred Euro total from no more than a few dozen people. My

[Guest glenb]

I am with Tim on this. The PMDG 737NG is outstanding and I have had many many hours of educational enjoyment with it. The long haul 747 will be added to my collection but as a long haul there are hours and hours of not much to do. You know the saying