EGLL SID/STAR errors?

[Guest frankathl]

There seem to be quite a few errors in the SID/STAR file for London Heathrow(from the 0405 cycle). When attempting to input EGLL as the Origin airport on the FMC Route Page, the FMC reported the following errors:EGLL err: CPT08 unknown, thenEGLL err: BNN12 unknownOn checking the SID/STAR file for EGLL, I found that both CPT08 and BNN12 were defined as NAVAIDS. I assumed(not sure if I'm right, though?) that these navigation entries should be defined as FIXes, and so I defined CPT08 accordingly, using the paper chart for SID CPT 5J When I reloaded the sim, I found that CPT08 had gone away, but I now had uncovered anothered error, LON02, as well as the remaining BNN12.Has anyone else experienced this problem?I have a couple of questions in relation to the above:1. Despite how I "fixed" one of the problems in the file, I'm inclined to doubt that there are, in fact, errors in Simon's SID/STAR file for EGLL, especially as it has not been updated since September last, yet I don't think any issues have been reported before? Isn't it more likely there is a mismatch between the latest version of the DAFIF database cycle(AIRAC0405)and the independently compiled SID/STAR files, so that a number of navaids(ie CPT08, BNN12, LON02, etc), which may have gone missing from the AIRAC database are causing problems for the SID/STAR files?2. As a matter of interest, since I'm new to writing terminal procedures, how would I define the LON02 waypoint, which is the point where a 2 DME arc centered on the LON VOR intersects the extended centerline of RWY 09? Would appreciate your help!BR,FrankPS By the way, since I'm sure it'll come up (:-)), here's how I last updated my FMC database:A. Downloaded latest AIRAC from Richard Stefan's siteB. Downloaded latest SID/STAR database from Terry Yingling's siteC. Downloaded AIO SID/STAR files from Richard's siteInstalled A, then updated the PMDG SIDSTAR directory with B, then copied C over B in the same directory./F

[Guest stang]

Hi Frank>Isn't it more likely there is a mismatch>between the latest version of the DAFIF database>cycle(AIRAC0405)and the independently compiled SID/STAR files,>so that a number of navaids(ie CPT08, BNN12, LON02, etc),>which may have gone missing from the AIRAC database are>causing problems for the SID/STAR files?I have not seen the EGLL file but in general terms it is possible that an AIRAC cycle could delete, add or change a navaid or waypoint. If the navaid causing the error is defined as a NAVAID in the procedure file then there could very well be some errors as you describe. On the other hand if the navaid is defined as a FIX then the FIX location will take precedence over a navaid so there would be no navaid error.>2. As a matter of interest, since I'm new to writing terminal>procedures, how would I define the LON02 waypoint, which is>the point where a 2 DME arc centered on the LON VOR intersects>the extended centerline of RWY 09? One of several ways.1. HDG 94 UNTIL 2 FROM NAVAID LON2. Use a graphic flight planner and find the lat/long of the waypoint and then define the waypoint as FIX LON02 LATLON deg/min deg/min. Then using FIX LON02 will do it.3. Define the waypoint as FIX LON02 COLOCATED LON 94 2. Then using FIX LON02 will do it although this depends on LON being close to the runway.Hope this helps.RegardsTerry

[Guest frankathl]

Thanks, Terry.I think it is more likely to be a problem with the AIRAC for the reason I mentioned above, but will wait to hear if others have the same problem.Thank you for the tutorial on the creating the fix. It's very helpful to see the different ways this can be achieved.BR,Frank

[falconno 0]

Hi Frank1. Yes, I think everyone discovered this with this particular procedure file, and this topic has been discussed recently, make a search for EGLL and you'll find the post. FYI, someone has uploaded an edited file to Navdata that actually work.I don't know the reason to that these fixes/wp's no longer exist in the database, maybe this is due to AIP-UK changes. But what I do know, that there are other substitutes fixes/wp's at the same lat/long. I have done some research and wrote a complete list with the changes that I will forward this to Simon. If you are interested in this list, PM me.You may also contact him directly, as I think this is the only source for updates at the moment. (Maybe he already has updated the file already)2. If I my add something to Terry's excellent explanation, you can also use NAVAID D093A (for 9L) and NAVAID D093B (for 9R), these wp's are in the database.

[simon2 0]

I have uploaded this evening a batch of files to Richard's Navdata site. The rest of my files on the Navdata site should be current and therefore I havent overwritten them.This should sort the problem. I will check the files again on the release of 0505 Airac for any compatibility problems, however I'm away until Tuesday now working.Simon

[Guest frankathl]

Hi Per,Sorry, didn't realise this was a known issue. I checked that thread and, sure enough, it's the same problem. Simon has posted a new file to Richard's site, so will download this, and get the new AIRAC. Hopefully, all will be fine now!Thanks for your suggestion about defining the 2 DME waypoint. So, D093A is in the navdata and is located at the 2 DME waypoint(sorry, new to looking in these files!).BR,Frank

[Guest frankathl]

Thank you, Simon.Will get the new files and AIRAC this evening.Much appreciate your help.BR,Frank

[Guest frankathl]

With Simon's updated files and AIRAC 0505, everything works fine again! Thank you!While we're on the subject of EGLL, I have a couple of questions about flying the ILS approach to ILS27R, if I may?1. Coming in from the west, the STAR has me at OCK at 7000', but the approach plate indicates I should be at 2500' immediately after OCK until intercepting the LOC("2500' to LOC"). How do I accomplish this? Is it okay to DESCEND to 2500' during the transition from OCK to LOC intercept(as in the programmed TRANSition to final approach), or should I expect to hold at OCK and be descended to 2500' before leaving entering the transition?2. I can see the programmed STAR and IAP match what is in the charts, but where does the TRANS information come from(that is, from OCK until intercepting the LOC)?Thanks for your patience!BR,Frank

[simon2 0]

Hello FrankI am glad you now have everything working fine.The 7000ft at Ockham is the minimum holding altitude. If flying online you should not proceed past Ockham without ATC clearance.I am not sure where you are reading on the charts that you should be 2500ft immediately after Ockham? The approach charts show an intercept altitude of 2500ft just before I-RR 7.5, I estimate without looking up you have at least 20 track miles from Ockham, before intercepting I-RR. I would be hoping for a continual descent rather than flying level.I have tried to reproduce real life vectors for the transitions, really for use for offline flying,if flying online expect vectors from Ockham but these will be quite close to the ones I have included.Simon

[Guest frankathl]

Many thanks for your reply, Simon!It's great that the TRANS simulates RL vectors, and it works very well. I was curious whether you were following the transition given on the Jeppesen chart. The Jeppesen IAP for ILSDME 27R has a note "2500' TO LOC" on the 13nm intercept from OCK to the localiser intercept(same at BNN, BIG, LAM). This raises another question(!), about which I've been curious for some time - why do the Civil Aviation Authority charts contain far less information than the Jepp equivalents? The CAA charts contain the ILS information but little else. I can find only the OCK VOR, but not BNN, BIG or LAM. No transition information, so maybe it assumes radar vectors to the ILS from the end point of the STAR? But surely it should show the holding points at NE, NW, SW, SE of EGLL, for reference?The CAA charts can be found here:http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/login.jsp;BR,Frank