FMC STAR coding

[cowpatz 243]

It is frustrating that the STARS are not runway specific as are the SIDS. I have been trying to code some updated STARs for local airfiels and am frustrated that this cannot be done. In the RW aircraft an approach can be selected and the STARs for that runway will appear. This is not possible with the PMDG sim. It is ossible to select a STAR that is not availbale for a runway and cause all sorts of issues and confusion. I assume that this FMC modelling is generic to both the 747 Pax, F and 737 variants. Would it be a major to update the programming code for the FMC terminal procedures (ie. rwy specific STARS and transitions, ability to program a speed along side an at or above or at or below alt restriction as in the real world and prevalent in many STAR procedures),and if possible the following?:1. The route activation should only occur once. Any other mod such as a SID or leg alteration should bring up the EXEC light and not require route reactivation.2. That the legs step thru function work with a route modification prior to execution, as well as after, when in plan mode. Currently this can only happen after execution and is not correct.I would be happy to assist with this in whatever way I can. CheersSteve

[downscc 1,327]

<>I use one of the two techniques advised by Terry in his "how-to" guidebook, which is to add a transiton to the approach procedure. This works really well.For example, say the last fix before expecting vectors from the star is ABCDE (or ABCDE is also a IAF for the approach), then put a transition in the approach named the same as the star and code the route from ABCDE to the approach. This solution works up to a point... sometimes I will instead code two different stars depending on landing direction. For example, if the star has two different routes to the last fix depending on if traffic is landing North or South, I will code STAR.N and STAR.S (where STAR is the star name) and duplicate everything but the last part that is dependent on direction.It can be done, but it needs to be done with work-arounds.

[cowpatz 243]

Thanks Dan,I have been doing this as a work around but there are problems especially if there are STAR transitions and approach transitions too. I am trying to keep what appears on the FMC as close to real world as possible. A code change to make STARS rwy specific, like SIDs, would be great. If it can be done for SIDs then it should be able to be done for STARS.ThanksSteve

[cowpatz 243]

I guess I will have to contact PMDG directly to see if it is possible.Steve

[falconno 0]

Steve,You are correct about the listing if runway specific STAR's. However if you code the runway into the procedure, you'll get a "ARR N/A FOR RUNWAY" warning message if you select a STAR not specific to the selected approach. (That is if you select the rwy before the STAR).Besides that I guess we have to wait for the -NGX version for any updates or modifications to the FMC.

[Tabs 2,790]

Yeah - there's a couple things regarding STAR programming that I'd really like to see us do in the next gen PMDG products too. This sort of display issue being talked about here, but also something where it adds waypoints to the STAR depending on which runway you select - this happens at a bunch of airports... The PDZ4 at KLAX is probably the best example - the STAR branches off into 4 different paths after the last common waypoint that all depend on which runway is selected. Hopefully that sort of thing will be automatic in the NGX and A320...

[downscc 1,327]

A STAR brances into different paths at most of the dozen STAR updates I've done so far. The IF...THEN...ELSE construct has been in programming since I used punch cards (I really did), nobody has to invent anything. I assume the actual hardware does it, why not the sim?Hopefully, another issue being discussed is RNP capability. I just read where Quantas has gone RNP at Syndney and early last year tye started operating 737NGs using RNP 0.1 into Queensland New Zealand. Air New Zealand and Airbus countered by qualifying the A320. Even the stodgy slow FAA has RNP 1.0/2.0 specified in some RNAV STARS/DPs (see KDFW) and RNP 0.1 at KDCA (for security reasons, otherwise they's still be studying it).Going in this direction opens up a whole different can of worms, I admit. First of all, when you adopt AIRAC Leg definitions (which I believe all the real hardware guys have) you loose the ability to program conditional fixes (e.g., HDG 090 UNTIL 4000). These issues add a level of complexity to implementation. But, they're not stopping it from being implemented.I'm cheering PMDG on, I hope the NGX is a step along the same path that Boeing (and Airbus) is taking with navigation systems.

[cowpatz 243]

The actual hardware does it very well. You can start your selection anywhere. Approach, STAR or Runway. Usually I select the type of approach first. This limits the STAR selection to those available for that runway. Then I select the STAR transition followed by the approach transition. This way I get no route discontinuity that I have to resolve on the legs page. I check it thru on the legs page and then look at it in plan view on the ND then I execute it. AFTER that I put in any other speed/alt constraints I want. I do it this way so that if I screw up the speed alt selection and then hit the erase key I dont lose the whole STAR and approach. I notice that the PMDG FMC does not appear to model this aspect very well (although other operators may have different FMC specs...I dont know). In the actual FMC when you select an approach etc you should get an ERASE prompt at the bottom left of the FMC screen. This does not happen in the SIM instead you have to deselect the approach before selecting the next one. Also it is not possible to step thru the LEGS in the plan mode prior to EXECuting (which is one of the main reasons why it is there). Without all the automated STAR, APP and RWY resolutions it is possible to end up with some really wacky and confusing tracks. I have not heard anything from PMDG thru the posts so I guess they are very busy with other things. I do hope that they are able to keep the 747 up to date and keep patching any errors in it in accordance with the desires of the forum community (within reason) as this will give me confidence in any future purchase ie. FSX, airbus etc.Falconno how do I tie in the rwy to a STAR and does this not conflict with the approach RWY selection or do you end up with a mess on the legs page to sort out later?CheersSteve

[falconno 0]

>how do I tie in the rwy to a STAR and does this not>conflict with the approach RWY selection or do you end up with>a mess on the legs page to sort out later?>Steve, If you write in the rwy at the end of the STAR syntax, that rwy will be tied to the STAR and you will get the warning message as described above. It's that conflict that will trigger this message. Here's an example: The syntax:"STAR AND.4L NAVAID AND NAVAID D220S AT OR ABOVE 5500 NAVAID D034X NAVAID D204Q NAVAID D190O NAVAID CI01 AT OR ABOVE 5000 RNW 01"If I now select the "ILS.19" approach first and then the AND.4L I'll be presented with this message:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/147910.jpgAnother workaround "trick" to sort the STAR's is to write the star procedure as STAR transitions. Start the coding with something like: STAR RWY.07... and then write the actual stars for that rwy as transitions. Not rw realistic, but it may help in sorting out the correct procedure for a given rwy.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/147911.jpgThe code for this:"STAR RNAV.07 NAVAID GOKSI AT OR ABOVE 3200 TRANSITION SOVIG1G NAVAID SOVIG NAVAID AL801 AT OR ABOVE 6000 NAVAID NERLO AT OR ABOVE 4000 NAVAID RUNAD TRANSITION TUVUG1G NAVAID TUVIG NAVAID VETIG AT OR ABOVE 12000 NAVAID AL803 AT OR ABOVE 7000 NAVAID AL802 AT OR ABOVE 6000 NAVAID PILEM AT OR ABOVE 4500 NAVAID RUNAD AT OR ABOVE 3200RNW 07"When you select the "RNAV.07" you will be presented with the star names as transitions. The end result on the FMC legs page will be the same as if your wrote it as a straight forward star syntax. Also here you'll get the "ARR N/A FOR RUNWAY" warning if the rwy is listed at the end.

[cowpatz 243]

Hey thanks very much for the time you have take to present this. I will give it a try and see how it goes.CheersSteve