The 744 FMC is Not Accepting Kai Tak IGS on NAV/RAD

[MSW 0]

The FMC is not accepting the Kai Tak RWY 13 IGS freq @ 111.90. Everytime I try to input into the NAV/RAD on line 4L for ils or even into VOR #1 I get invalid input. Its on my game because the default aircraft pick it up and I can make the approach but the PMDG 744 won't. Is there a way to put it into the FMC data base or am I doing something else wrong? Please help, I would like to make this approach with this great addon aircraft.Mike

[cowpatz 243]

Hi Mike.Are you selecting the approach from the DEP ARR page? If so the ILS should tune automatically. If for some reason it isn't you can maually enter it on the nav rad page. It must be entered as FREQ/Inbd course. For example an ILS with a frequency of 109.9 and an Inbound course of 231 degrees would be entered as 109.9/231. If the inbound course was 52 degrees it would be entered as 109.9/052.I would be surprised if you could not select this from the ARR/DEP page in the FMC. Do you know how to select an approach using this page?I used to fly into Kai tak in a 747-200 years ago. That IGS approach was great fun. The secret to a successful arrival there (and this probably applies to the sim as well) is that when visual with the chequer board you need to go left slightly (yes I know there are hills out there but I said slightly!. Do not be tempted to turn too early. Keep descending all the time and make a smooth descending turn onto final.The biggest mistakes I have seen at Kai Tak were when aircraft tried to cut the corner. This makes it way too tight at the end and the aircraft generally goes high and misses or smashes it on the deck in an unstabilised fashion. The other is that for some reason when turning piolts generally level out. It is disconcerting to be turning and descending so close to the ground/buildings. At times it seems as if you are dragging the wing tip thru the apartment buildings on the final turn in. God knows how anyone could live under that approach!!!Sport of kings it was!CheersSteve

[markadeane 272]

Nice tips n tricks there Steve, chrs.To the original poster, bear in mind that the default scenery doesn't include the IGS, at least as far as I'm aware it doesn't. You'll need either a VHHX add-on scenery or (at the very least) a modified afcad file that reactivates the airport.Also you'll need to go to one of the procedure repositories online to pick up the procedure file for VHHX. I'd try www.navdata.at or www.planepath.com for this.I am an instructor in a 737NG sim, and we fly this approach with clients quite frequently, I don't have the charts in front of me but if I recall correctly the IGS frequency for Rwy 13 is 111.9, inbound course 088 and identifier I-KL.For those who want a similar challenge, the KJFK parkway visual to either of the Runway 13's is fun, as is the Canarsie climb off Rwy 31L, which calls for an IMMEDIATE cimbing turn to the left after takeoff. Try doing either of these in the Queen at higher weights and you'll go away with a deeper appreciation of the physics of flying 397 tonnes of kerosene, meat and metal around the place. Charts at www.airnav.com of course!

[cowpatz 243]

Try looking in the AVSIM library for Kai Tak scenery. A good one is::http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?DLID=&Name=&FileName=kaitak98.zip&Author=&CatID=rootThere should be a text file with it that says how to install it. Attached is a zip file with SIDS and STARS etc for Kai Tak.When you have finished unzipping it copy the text file and put it in the PMDG folder called SIDSSTARS. For example mine is to be found at C:Program FilesMicrosoft GamesFlight Simulator 9PMDGSIDSTARS.You will need the other scenery package to get ATC and AI traffic etc.Cheers Steve

[jtsjc1 3]

Steve, I like the way you describe the Kai Tak approach as fun! Wasn't the IGS an offset LOC? Also what was the approximate airspeed thru the descent? Thanks, Joe

[markadeane 272]

It's actually an offset LOC and GS, to what degree of precision I'm not sure. I'd guess it would be the *equivalent* of a CAT1 ILS given that it was only designed to guide you down to the commencement of the turn.Steve (aka cowpatz?!) can correct me here, he's actually flown the real deal of course!As a sidebar, the departure off Rwy 31 is quite cool as well. Charts available at www.cpavirtual.org, click on Kai Tak in the menu bar.

[MSW 0]

Thanks for the help!! What I was doing wrong was manually trying to enter the IGS freq of 111.9 without the course setting. I have Vile's Kai Tak 98 plus the freeware which significantly increases the building autogen. Framerates are about 20 - 24 and scenery looks pretty good. I've tried Mole's freeware Kai Tak but have a slide show with that one. Just took off from Kai Tak on Rwy 13 using radio navigation and HSI steered to TD VOR @ 115.5 and climbed to 4500 ft at 240 knots. Then turned to CH VOR @ 112.3 at 4500 ft and 240 knots. After CH turned onto the 270 radial and then at 7 miles past CH with the NDB 268 pointed north I made a turn to 45 degrees while slowing down to 210 knots with some flaps. Upon capturing the localizer @ 111.90 pushed LOC followed by APP when capturing the glide slope and began slowing down and dropping flaps and eventually gear until at VREF + 10 and flaps 30. Close to the turn I disabled Auto Pilot and Throttle. As suggested above I cheated a little to the left in the turn toward the visual reduced speed to VREF close to touchdown and nailed it on the center line. Wind was crossing from the right at 16 knots. I then repeated again. What a fun challenging approach! I can understand why real pilots sweated this one while almost joining the adjacent apartment building dwellers for tea. Any suggestions on my approach would be appreciated. Thanks again everyone for the great suggestions!Mike

[markadeane 272]

You've more-or-less nailed it Mike, well done! One suggestion is to make your intercept course onto the localiser a heading of 058 instead of 045. The reason for this is that 058 makes it a 30 degree intercept and thus easier for the AP to capture.Chrs

[cowpatz 243]

Gidday Mike,Yes it is a great approach. You can stay clean while in the CH VOR holding pattern and then start to put flap out as you get toward the turning point for the IGS at GOLF. Flap 5 is fine. This is a great manoeuvering setting for the 747 and is what is recommended for turning onto a LOC. Once you see the GS become active go flap 10 and bug the speed back. You should be able to fly nicely down the slope at Flap 10 without accelerating. At 1500ft AGL select gear down and then Flap 20. Bug the speed back. As soon as the gear is down select Flap 30. Normally this would be done at 1000ft AGL but the minima here on the approach is 660 ft so give yourself a bit of space. This is a low drag approach and would be used with a reasonable cloud base and vis. Kai Tak of course is notorious for its bad weather, windshear and crosswinds so if you want to treat it for real then alter the weather in the sim and then have a go. It is very challenging. If the weather is inclement then do a full drag approach. As soon as the GS is active then select gear down and then Flap 20. At GS intercept Flap 30 and bug to your final approach speed (TTS). Add half the steady headwind wind component and all of the gust factor. ie. if it is 190/20 G30 then calculate the headwind component which at 60 degrees off the runway heading is half so you would have a 10 kt steady headwind component and then add to this all the just factor (30 - 20 = 10 kts). In this case you would add 10 + 10 = 20 kts to the VREF. Set this figure on the MCP airspeed bug.A requirement of the approach is to sight the chequer board. You will also notice a set of lead in lights that guide you to the threshold of RW13. Do not turn inside these lights! This area of Hong Kong had a ban on any flashing neon lights so that the approach and guidance lights would not be lost from sight. The missed approach is straight forward. Believe it or not an operator, on a missed approach, climbed out straight ahead instead of turning onto 136 degrees. They didn't hit anything but it must have been close. Try it in the sim.Yes taking off on 31 was good too as you had to do a LH turn very shortly after takeoff. Some off the windshear taking off in this direction was diabolical. I can recall just getting airborne when we encountered horrendous turbulence. It was so bad that it was impossible to read the instruments. All I knew was that we had to turn so many degrees to the left after passing an NDB. As I could not see the HSI I just cranked it around and did some mental timing before rolling out. The turbulence only lasted for a 1000 ft but it was incredibly violent. That was Hong Kong and it wasn't even Monsoon season. That is another story.Enjoy operating into Fragrant Harbour.....great fun.CheersSteve

[MSW 0]

Great stuff guys. I will try the suggestions. Thanks once again!!!Mike

[jtsjc1 3]

Thanks Mark and Steve. I actually got the FlightSoft Hong Kong scenery last week. It looks great and has a good manual with approach plates although I haven't had a chance to try it yet. One interesting thing the manual stated was wingtip strikes actually occured on the final turn during heavy turbulence. Try explaining to the cable company why your TV went out! Joe

[markadeane 272]

Steve, if you're down in Wellington anytime drop me a line and we'll have a go at VHHX in the 737NG sim I work for. Would be great to get some inside knowledge on flying the approach, as I fly it with clients in the sim on a regular basis.

[cowpatz 243]

Sure thing. Thanks for the offer. It would be great fun. Not sure when I will be in Wellington though. I will keep it mind though.Cheers Steve

[markadeane 272]

Anytime mate, and only if you can bear to face a flightdeck on your day off. I think you have my gmail address as we conversed a while back about an FS matter. In any event you can get hold of me here if the scenario arises.Chrs.