A Price to Pay for Technology

[Guest bobdell]

Just a thought while trying to get an acceptable frame rate just using a Cessna 172 in FSX, is where are we going to find enough frame rate to run the PMDG747 400 without it jerking along like disco dancers when the florescence light are on. Because as it is, PMDG 747 400 gobbles up frame rate. If it

[michal 44]

I would title your thread instead: "A Price to Pay for better Simulation" because technology is simply means in achieving the final goal which is more eye-candy, better clouds, better airports, better airplanes, etc.I still think that relatively speaking the 'price' is still small comparing to what real flying costs and the price of commercial simulators not to mention many others costs in life like utilities, housing, car insurance, college education for your kids, etc. So I see no reason not to buy your wife bunch of roses regardless if you keep up with technology or not ;)Michael J.

[Guest pilotbrian0]

Just a thought, a lot of people compare Flight Sim to other avenues of Flight and other higher expenses. Why don't we compare Flight Sim to other hobbies? Because as a hobby goes, Flight Sim is on the higher end of the price ladder and quickly working it's way towards that number 1 slot. Sure, right now there are hobbies that are more expensive (Trekkie comes to mind, as does RPGs) but that doesn't mean that Flight Sim isn't an uber expensive hobby. I WISH I could get over my love of the hobby inorder to pursue cheaper hobbies, like... I don't know... well, ok, so there are no cheaper hobbies that interest me... (Goes back in hole and continues working on the latest major hardware upgrade for his FS comp...)Just some food for thought, I think we are comparing Flight Sim to the wrong things, taking it out of its category.-Brian

[michal 44]

>Just a thought, a lot of people compare Flight Sim to other>avenues of Flight and other higher expenses. Why don't we>compare Flight Sim to other hobbies?Real flying happens to be a hobby for many. The same way stamp collection, horses, scuba diving, golf, etc - are all hobbies and all can be very expensive, much more expensive than flight simulation on PCs. Yes, there are also some very inexpensive hobbies like bird watching or mushroom picking. ;)My other hobby happens to be wines - I can tell you it is quite expensive. Michael J.

[Guest bobdell]

Michael J.I

[Guest pilotbrian0]

I hear your pain. I believe it was about 7 hours ago I was complaining to a friend that I BUILT my computer a year ago and at the time it was state of the art, and now my parents store bought computer out performs mine.Technology is expanding at an exponential rate, and with it, the cost of technology. Just a few years back, it was normal for not every home to have a computer. Now, that is commonplace, but if technology continues to expand at the pace it is, and the cost continues to go with it, the days of commonplace computers may be over before they were noticed.Either way, the more expensive the programs get, the more piracy there is, the more things people do to try and prevent piracy, the more annoyed legitimate customers get, the more legitimate customers go to piracy.It's called escalation, and it's going to just keep happening until the technology industry AS A WHOLE learns to realize that users aren't made out of money, and we shouldn't be designing the latest games and technology around users having 32 million dollars in their pocket!So, here's us, the consumers, throwing up a joint and desperate plea, and there's them, the developers, the industry, totally ignoring the plea. And ultimately, because we are a entertainment driven society, we are going to continue to buy products even though the get less and less appealing and more and more expensive. We are going to continue to buy products even though they get less and less "user friendly" and more and more expensive. Pretty soon, we'll hit the border where we as a community just say, "WHY?!" and realize that we are buying absolute junk for insane prices.It's time to stop comparing and open your eyes people. I know that there are a lot of good products out there, but there are a lot of bad ones too, and they are charging just as much, if not more. I'll admit to being one who buys a lot of addons, but at least I walk into it eyes open, knowing just how much I spend on FS a year, and just how much money I burn.When I find an addon that disappoints me, I tell people, despite what the developers might do to get "defensive."Another thing, it's time to quit defending the industry. It is not defending us, it's time we demand the industry remembers why it exists, since if it continues on this path, the hobby of FS will die off.I've watched several developers praising FSX, I personally hate it. I won't go into that here. Why are they praising FSX when it clearly has many flaws, and unlike most of the flaws in FS9, they are flaws that are likely to be in direct opposition to what users are expecting from it.Alright, I'm almost done, but hear me out. Developers have been writing games for who knows how long. It used to be, you could buy a game, and no matter what your system was, it would play it, because you had a store bought system, which was the same as every other store bought system and voila, that's what developers wrote their programs for. Then it became easy to make your own system, or get a customized system, and people started doing so. Developers saw this and started pushing their development envelopes a little. This was no problem, as those who were serious users would buy serious machines. NOW: There are 3 kinds of users, those who have way too much money, those who wish they were the first, and those who use a computer for internet/email/music/office, etc.Developers are catering to the first kind, those who can have the latest and greatest yesterday and still have the money to get the latest and greatest today. But the vast vast majority of their potential customers are the second group, those who can afford an upgrade once every couple of years at MOST. We don't want to be left behind and out to rot, this is our hobby too, don't forget us!-Brian

[Guest Phill]

I could not wait to get FSX now, now that i have it and tweaked my pc the best i can ,i am in no hurry to use it again,,, for now fs9 will do.Phill Irwin

[rquick 19]

"Developers have been writing games for who knows how long. It used to be, you could buy a game, and no matter what your system was, it would play it, because you had a store bought system, which was the same as every other store bought system and voila, that's what developers wrote their programs for."You must be young. I don't mean that to be derogatory in any way. It's just that what you're saying about the past few years or so is quite true but, if you bought a 'state of the art' computer in 1992, it would be close to obsolete in about 6 months. After that, many times you couldn't even intall a new game let alone play it.Game software developers writing games that will run on everyones 'best buy' computer became a smart business move, but it took some of the pressure off of the hardware side to progress, IMO.I was actually more stunned that I could upgrade to FS9 WITHOUT having to upgrade hardware than I am that FSX will require the latest stuff to run at its best. Before FS9, I had to upgrade hardware to run FS well every time (thats going back to SubLogic days).I would guess that more 'seasoned' (see older) flight simmers are far less shocked at the FSX need for cutting edge hardware than younger ones.I'm actually glad that FSX is pushing the hardware envelope, as I'm sure Vista will do as well. Things on the hardware end have become a little stagnated IMHO.Hopefully in a couple years people will write laughingly: "Remember how everyone freaked out about FSX? Any computer could run that now."

[michal 44]

>Developers are catering to the first kind, Frankly it makes little sense. If developers were catering to those who have "way too much money" developers would go broke long time ago. Developers cater to majority since it is this majority that can buy product in sufficient quantities. If FSX was developed for those who have "way too much money" then this may be the end of the FS genre - time will tell.Michael J.

[Guest bobdell]

Hey Guys, This is what I conceive to be the ideal computer system you will need to be able to get the best out of Flight Simulator X

[Guest bobdell]

It

[anthonyrees 0]

Hi Bobby.I really sympathise with you, being a fellow South African with an under-performing exchange rate at this time. By the way, where are you from in SA?I would just love to get a basic minimal spec from PMDG for what they have experienced to be reliable, and frame-friendly hardware setup for their new generation of FX aircraft. A beginners setup machine, with room top expand, in other words. All this, with value for money in mind.I belive this will be a great start, and a kick in the but for me to start saving.RegardsAnthony ReesCape TownSouth Africa

[Guest pilotbrian0]

I am young, and I am in college, and that means that A) I don't have a lot of time for my hobby, and :( I don't have a lot of money for it.However, I've been buying computers since the mid 90's so I am quite familiar with how quickly they could go obsolete, I'm also quite aware that it used to be that obsolete didn't mean you couldn't run some of the newer games because the games were being written for yesterdays technology because that's what people could afford. For example: When FS98 came out, I had just bought a new computer, and that was my first FS version. I said, COOL, let's check it out! That computer was an old Windows 95 450 MHz (How many people even remember that designation? It died out a while ago) Pentium. Since then I have upgraded a few times, but FS all the way through 2k2 ran on that system, with the addons I wanted. Then 2k4 came along and slowed down just enough to show me stutters. So finally I scrapped that system, and got a new FS system. So far, all along, I've stuck to the creed of "One computer for FS, one for everything else" So, I buy a new FS system, this one was a laptop and managed to give me all the latest and greatest in FS without much hassle.A year into FS2k4, the add-on developers started making some pretty advanced aircraft, and my FS computer started getting slower and slower and slower and slower.I then upgraded to my current box:AMD Athalon FX 4200+2GB (2X1024) Corsair Ram550W PSUSB Audigy 2ZSATI 1800ATI TV-WONDERall on an ASUS-A8V-E Mother BoardThis was an expensive upgrade, and I'm now starting to see IT slowing down when I use today's addons.I'm sorry to anyone who thinks that developers are catering to the majority, because the majority use obsolete hardware for several years (2 at the minimum), and developers are catering to the latest and greatest in hardware.Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to FS 11 (I think I'm going to stick with FS9 till it comes out, FSX just feels more fake and in my opinion went the wrong way when developing a Flight Sim.) But right now, I'm just not impressed with the way developers in general are going. I applaud Microsoft for their changes under the hood to the rendering system of FSX and I boo them for adding so much eye candy to make those changes unnoticeable. Terrain, sure, make that look nicer, but seriously people, do we NEED AI planes with warping wings? I personally think it's a waste of my computers processor since I only see AI planes close to airports anyways.Now, here's the aweful truth of things: I have professors who are looking for alternative jobs because they see the computer industry falling apart and suspect that the Computer related majors will die soon after.At the advice of my counselor, I'm pursuing an alternate major to computer science because it may not even still be there when I graduate.Don't tell me things haven't changed, because they have, support has turned into forums where users provide the support (freeing up valuable time for the developers, I'm sure, and I don't say this is a bad thing, and I know PMDG has a direct support email address wich is nice, but they are one of few). What used to be buying on CD no matter what product you were talking about, now means internet delivery, and woe to you if you delete it, more money to redownload (piracy protection, I know, I'm not blaming, I'm just saying), Installs now require active internet connection, which for me in the dorms here means that sometimes I have to wait days before I can install the product I JUST FINISHED DOWNLOADING! because the Internet has gone out again, or I've hit my bandwidth limit for the day. That's annoying to do, let me tell you.I wonder how many people think that internet activation really stops piracy? Just the other day I saw someone flying some airplane that I know for a fact their internet activation system generates a liscense key for it, and I also know that they did not purchase it. I dealt with it, as all citizens should, by informing the developer, and left it with them (I believe the developer went something like, "Oh" and did their best to get the crack deleted, instead of going after the one user, I don't know if all developers will do that, but this one did).It does make piracy HARDER, I'll give them that, but there's really not much that the pirate community can't break.I'd also like to note, as much bashing of developers as I've done in this thread, I really appreciate the products that PMDG and a few others have put out. There are a few developers I directly avoid now (I won't name them, but suffice to say, they sell crap at high prices, and I won't buy from them again).-Brian