New to SIDS & STARS

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The PMDG 747-400 is first large scale aircraft that I have had that can take advantage of SIDS & STARS. My flight plan has me landing at KMSP from the northeast and I am assuming that I will be given either 30 right or left. I believe that the correct STARS arrival is EAU8. I know that I can find SIDS and STARS data from either AIRNAV or AOPA. My question is where can I find some reading material that can explain the correct method to choose the correct SID or a STAR chart. It appears that some approaches can use multiple charts.ThanksTom

[downscc 1,327]

Welcome to standard instrument procedures! May I suggest you first look at my article in the PMDG Wiki section: http://ops.precisionmanuals.com/wiki/SIDSTARSThe article provides some links for further reading. I have found http://flightaware.com an excellent source for finding out which procedures are in use. You can look at the actual traffic arriving and departing KMSP and the flight plans they have filed. Charts are also available here.Most locations use different arrivals depending on the direction you are coming from. A few also have different arrivals depending on the direction of traffic (i.e., which runway in use). The charts start to make sense after you use them for awhile and selection becomes second nature.Please try out my SIDSTARS collection in the AVSIM FS2004-Flight Plans library (cycle_0613_sidstars.zip), which has 43 US locations including KMSP. The KMSP (and most of my latter locations) have procedures for both those who are using an ATC service and I create realistic routes for those like myself who prefer to self navigate and pretend there is a real ATC.Hope this helps.

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Dan,Thanks. I'll be reveiwing your work tonight.Tom

[Guest staang]

Hi Tom,>I know that I can find SIDS and STARS data from either AIRNAV>or AOPA. You can also download over 1000 airports with their terminal procedures from PlanePath.com for free so you don't have to program them into the FMC.RegardsTerry

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Thanks Terry,What I am really looking for is a guide/tutorial on how to best use SIDS and STARS. That is, the proper method to select the correct procedure during takeoff or landing, and most of all how and where to insert it/them in a flight plan.The other night on a approach into KPHX I selected a STARS approach that I though was correct to have me arrive on 25L. My approach flew me over the airport 260/270, reverse its course, 90/100, and then reversed it course again 250/260. The last course reversal occured so quickly that I was unable to capture the LOC.I just need to get smarter on the overall process and the best way to learn is to study and understand an airports terminal procedures.Tom

[downscc 1,327]

I wish you had stated which KPHX STAR you were flying; most procedures are designed such that ATC vectors to final are required at some point after the approach gate. The route provided by the STAR may take you to a fix at or near the airport but long before that fix ATC will vector you for either a base or downwind pattern then a vector the the final approach course.None of the KPHX STARS provide a route to an ILS FAF (final approach fix). That's why I was wondering which approach and how you were navigating (self, ATC or STAR)?

[Guest Peter Lloyd]

Tom Have a play with the PLAN view on the nav display. This brings up the fight plan. When the FMC is set up to LEGS you can step through to the end of the plan. Selecting the SIDor STAR on the ARR/DEP projects the Ssee the selected SID/STAR on the nav display. Very cool tool for debugging routes too. Peter

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Thanks for the help Peter, but I understand how to confirm LEGS through the use of the LEGS and PLAN. My problem is that I am most likely over thinking the process. I expect that there is a transition point that I need to place the STARS reference point in the flight plan. I also believe that through the use of STARS, I may need to add, delete or create a small number of waypoints. This is where I get lost in the process.Also, as an additional problem, the aircraft that I am most familair with is the Level-D 767-400ER. For this aircraft there is not alot of developed SIDS and STARS. So often times for my final approach I would select a runway, and then develop a runway extension point of 12 to 15 NM from the end of the runway. This would always cause a route discontinuity that would be easy to correct. When I attempt to do this step with the Queen, I can easily fixed the first route discontinuity, but I develop a second discontinuity between the extented runway point and the actual runway. All I should have to do at this point is close the second discontinuity and execute the revised flight plan. The Queen will not allow me to close the second discontinuity. Any ideas how I should handle this problem?Again thanks for your help.Tom

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Rather than trying to build a transition from the STAR arrival to the final approach, I recommend using the HDG to fly either a downwind or base leg (this covers 95% of the scenarios) from the STAR towards the final approach course. Once on base about 10 nm from the runway, I then turn into a heading that intercepts the final approach course at about a 30 deg angle such that I turn onto the final about 3 nm outside of the final approach fix (FAF).The 30 deg intercept course is fairly standard, and being 3 nm outside of the FAF gives you about a minute to get things ready for the final approach segment. This method gets you to final in the least amount of manuevering, and the altitude constraint at the FAF gives you a target altitude to descent towards.This takes a little practice but becomes very easy after awhile. It really helps to have the STAR and IAP charts for reference.Examples of this technique can be found in the SIDSTARS I have developed for KATL KBOS KCLT KDFW KEWR KIAH KMSP KOAK KSEA KSFO and others. The routes are built into the STAR procedures for each preferred arrival runway. Simply select the arrival and the ILS approach (without transition), and the star route takes you to the ILS FAF in the manner I described above.

[Guest Peter Lloyd]

TomI have had similar problems and know where you are coming from!STARS seem to go wherever they want to, and it seems that putting the destination name in the final line ends up giving similar problems.The FIX solution is a wonderful way to overcome this hassle.Let us build an example;You are flying into an airport with 06/24 runways, using a STAR which ends up at the 140 degree radial from the airport at a distance of 15 NM. You want to get up to a point 15NM on the 090 radial from the airport, from where you wish to turn to a heading of 270 to intercept the glideslope before the 10DME,

[TC1 0]

Peter,Thanks, I'll give it a try this weekend. I would guess that this solution should work under any FMC/CDU configuration (1.e. Level-D, Feelthere, etc.)Tom

[Guest Peter Lloyd]

TomPlease have a look at the attached files showing the process of adding fixes to get to the runway intercept discussed earlier.The final screen shows the addition of speed,altitude,a/b contraints at each newly generated fix.Please note that this is an example only - EGLL to EGCC in real ops follows a more complex heading up the DAYNE star to 24R.Hope this helps.If you want the pdf file with all the photos and text please drop me an email to tell me where to send it.Enjoy!!Peter:-cool