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Guest cliffie1931

Cameras to view engine fires?

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Guest cliffie1931

Some years ago BMI crashed in the UK when the pilots shut down the wrong engine.Although passengers saw flames coming from the left engine the pilots mistakenly shut down the right engine.I understand that now some aircraft incorporate a camera in the tail so that there can be visual confirmation of a fire before shutting down an engine.Do any of our PMDG aircraft have such a facility or, if not, is it a possiblity for future PMDG aircraft?Cliff

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Cliff,there are no aircraft in the in PMDG's product portfolio fitted with external cameras, as per their real counterparts. Same goes for the two aircraft in production; MD-11 doesn't have them, B737NG neither...In any way those cameras are not there for engine fires, they are there for better view when taxiing, hence only very long or big aircraft have them (A346, B773, A388) so far. They might find their way into smaller aircraft as well in the near future.On today's flight decks it is quite difficult to shut down the wrong engine in the event of a fire. Speaking of PMDG planes, on the MD-11 both the fire handle and the fuel lever of the affected engine have a red light as long as the fire condition exists. Add to that good CRM and switching off the wrong engine will not happen.Regards,Markus


Markus Burkhard

 

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I remember reading something about this accident.. I believe it was at East Midlands.. ?? Engine problem on approach and the pilots shut down the wrong engine.. There was a reason why the pilots did this.. and (without knowing the technical details to the full) it was something do with ancilliary systems that are fed from the engines.. Basically the 737 models all had a certain service supplied by say the left engine.. and in the newer models that service shifted to the other engine for whatever reason.. When the pilots saw a problem with the service.. (perhaps hydraulics or something?) They automatically assumed it was the engine that was responsible for that service (which of course NOW.. is the other engine.. which they didn't know).. SO.. they assumed the 737 hadn't changed.. shut down what they believed was the correct engine.. and by then it was too late..Sound about right?I'm not sure either the 747 or 737 have cameras.. if they did it would have been a Boeing option.. and none of the DVDs I've see have that feature..CheersCraig


Craig Read, EGLL

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"Sound about right?"They had engineers around the world checking the wiring for the fire systems after this incident. I thought I remembered there was a production or maintenance problem? (or was pilot error the final conclusion after the investigation?).Cheers.Q>

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What I know is that the pilots were new to this aircraft at that time and had misread the new layout of engine instruments while they were busy solving the problem. Also when they shut down the wrong engine the violent vibrations from the engine stopped (I recall this had something to do with the fact that the fuel feed to the faulty engine was reduced too, dont know whether its because they started descent or what [professionals please confirm]) and so the pilots were sure that they had done the right action. On the approach when they had to increase throttle again the fuel feed increased and the faulty engine failed completely.Anyone who knows more can add to this story.

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Plenty of hits from "Google".....including this one (with a recommendation that airlines should check their fire system wiring for "correct sense")http://www.aaib.gov.uk/sites/aaib/cms_reso..._pdf_502830.pdfI recall that a few airlines even discovered a few mis-wired aircraft(I think even some aircraft in the Boeing factory were discovered to be faulty on the production line).However, reading some of the Google hits, the fire system seemed to be ok for the Manchester accident.Cheers.Q>

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From what I remember reading about this the smell of smoke in the cabin lead them to believe it was the right engine no2 at fault because on earlier 737 the bleed air from no2 was used for cabin aircon.Also it was the input from the AT system trying to accelerate the faulty no1 engine that was causing vibration and surging.Once they disconected the AT and throttled back no2 the vibrations stopped,thus re affirming their belief it was no2 at fault.2 parameters should be checked it identify an engine failure,but thats not always possible as this case shows.rgdsJon


747-400 captain. 

Technical advisor on PMDG 747 legacy versions QOTS 1 , FS9 and Aerowinx PS1. 

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