RW operations in climb

[Subs 0]

Alex,Radar Contact is a program to deliver realistic ATC to our otherwise lonely FS flights.While implementing the 250kt below 10 rule into Radar Contact in one of the previous versions of the program, I checked the pprune forums to help us decide how to put this rule into action. Several replies posted there questioned the use of flaps 1 on climb to stay at or below 250 up to 10,000ft.You wrote that due to operating limitations a speed higher than 250kts is *required* when heavy. Does this mean leaving flaps 1 out and staying at 250kts until 10,000ft is an unsafe method of climbing? Maybe it is a fuel guzzler, but does it mean only clean can be safe?I ask this because during the approach stages (even though much lighter now) speed restrictions applied by ATC may restrict decent to temporary level flight at say, 4000ft at 220kts. This also requires flaps 1 or 5 hanging out, yet is not considered an unsafe way of flying.Please do not take my post as a way of 'questioning' your knowledge or experience - it is more a question due to interest and facilitation of discussion. I can also take back what I learn from this thread to enhance procedures applied by Radar Contact in future versions.Thanks,Subin.

[tmegowan 1]

Hello All If it is necessary a pilot may operate at speeds above 250kts below 10000 ft due to operational restrictions (i.e. minimum safe airspeed for weight. The need to advise ATC of this need Tony Megowan Air Traffic Control Specialist Santa Barbara Tracon/Tower

[Guest Just747-400]

Dear Subin,I am open to any questions and don

[jon b 2,041]

I`d take everything you read on pprune with a big punch of salt!As someone stated the 250<10 is a federal ruling in the US and so local ATC can`t lift the restriction. In the UK the phrase "no ATC speed restriction" had also been understood to mean the 250 limit was still in place. It has now been clarified that no speed restriction in the uk means just that,no speed control.In either case the limit is 250 or minimum safe clean speed, and is usually taken as read by ATC for heavy aircraft.If speed becomes a problem for seperation a speed or heading will be assigned.cheersJon

[ronzie 21]

I'm not sure if it made RC 4.3 but in version 5 in FAA areas speed relief will be available for heavies after contacting departure.One of our "resident" FAA controllers stated in most areas it is the DC that grants the relief and it will be in the inflight departure menus.As of May, 2007, as a test Houston can grant speed relief at clearance time. It is proposed that each airport traffic area manager examine and decide in what circumstances this is to occur.I have not checked the FAA sight for any progress. The airlines are requesting this relief for more than heavies.

[wongben4 0]

FYI, It is possilbe to go over 250kt below 10000 in HK. pilot:'XXX, request high speed descend'ATC:'XXX, high speed descend is approved'.ORATC:'XXXX, you are cleared for ELATO one alpha arrival, expected rwy 07L, from mango direct to sokoe, all attitude and speed restriction cancel' Frequenlty happens in the morning for traffic coming from the eastBen

[Ralgh 43]

I don't know if this will help but I have heard 747s get relief on the 250 knots when departing LAX many times. Actually all the times I have heard it ATC just gave it. I never heard the 747 ask for it. They may have requested it in their flight plans or something but it is not uncommon. I have also benn given the no speed restriction out of Houston a few times but I haven't gotten it in a long time. I heard Delta was given releif on that and hit some birds at well over 300 knots. The story is that many of the birds penetrated the cockpit. Since I heard that story I haven't gotten the no speed resrticion clearance.

[jon b 2,041]

Tom raises a good point there, even with the ATC speed restriction I personally limit the speed to 300kts below 10,000ft because of the danger possed by birds and PPLs!Talking of birds there was a flock of 30-40 very large birds circling in a thermal right on the ILS path at about 1500ft going into 17L KMCO yesterday, lucky they were about 50ft above the glideslope! What would they be eagles or condors?cheersJon

[TheDanger 182]

Wasn't Concorde granted special permission to exceed 250/10000?Graham

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I thought the Concorde was given a specific waiver such that they did not need to request permission each time, but I could be wrong.As for the flaps issue, Minimum Safe Airspeed is given for various configurations, but in general, it applies specifically to clean MSAspeed.As for the talk about the restrictions and clearance by ATC, 14 CFR Section 91.117 is real and used in real world ops. Listen to a scanner around an airport serving heavies. You'll hear a lot of clearances for speed adjustments.Cheers,Kyle

[MachTwo 386]

"I thought the Concorde was given a specific waiver such that they did not need to request permission each time, but I could be wrong."You

[jordanal 70]

Yes, but what is the true definition of "minumum safe airspeed"? Wouldn't it be more like v2+20 or somewhere just above the stall speed (yellow box on the speed tape)? To me, flaps in or out is not unsafe, just not preferred. They're certainly safe on approach.Is it for this reason (interpreted definition of "minimum safe airspeed") that some ATC may interprete the regulation otherwise?Just playing devil's advocate... I don't have a clue about RW OPS but that darn FSDO guy in RC can get annoying. ;)

[ronzie 21]

Right now the beta group for V5 r/w controllers are deciding whether speed relief is granted by departure or "prenegotiated" prior to commencement of the flight confirmed by CD.It also varies internationally. It is messy :) .Saw your post on the RC forum.Note that some of our beta testers have responded here.

[jordanal 70]

Cool, thanks Ron. Personally, I hope it is something that I can do during clearance in RCv5. Since by that point, I have an idea from my FMC of my prefereed VNAV calculated departure speed. This would make departure a little less cumbersome during take-off for the PF. Even with RC's co-pilot handling comms, there still a lot to do in those first few miutes of climb for the PF and having to remember to ask for 250kt releif at that time is even more burdonsome.In fact, why not make this user selectable in the RC ini file or advanced settings, whereby we could even have an option to completely disable the 250kt penalty if we chose "Heavie" in RC preperation page. That way, users from all over the world could set it up like they beleive RW ops happen in their local airspace.Obviously this part of the discussion needs to be taken back over to the RC forum but I thought it worth finishing the thought here.

[rsrandazzo 6,353]

Jon-If one of the various at-times-bankrupt US carriers flies to MCO- then they were likely Vultures waiting for the carcas.