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Qantas again....

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Qavion and Matt - absolutely agree. Whoops I shouldn't have put lately re BKK also. I wasn't trying to imply that I think Qantas is getting "dodgy" or lacking in any area, just that they've had a bit of bad luck lately. QF is after all, my favourite airline! Plus I am more than willing to entrust them with my life (as well as any other major Australian carrier for that matter).

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Guest Callmecapt

Yet another addition to the Qantas 747 drama.It has now been revealed that the Captain landed the aircraft completely without ILS and Autobrakes. Apparently, they were damaged in the Air Bottle explosion. And the 767 landing bay doors didn't help their reputation.I remember when Qantas was the perfect airline with an unblemished record. No expense spared when it came to safety. Now it "seems" they are cutting corners. I hope I'm wrong.Goran

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"It has now been revealed that the Captain landed the aircraft completely without ILS and Autobrakes."OMG.. the pilots had to actually fly the aircraft??? :(Can't figure out why the ILS wasn't working (yet the VOR was). I'm also surprised that only the Autobrakes weren't working, but the Antiskid was (unless they missed that detail)."No expense spared when it came to safety. Now it "seems" they are cutting corners. I hope I'm wrong."You may be right. Part of the engineers' recent industrial action involved them NOT cutting corners. Not a "go slow", but a "go safe". Wages were only part of the issue. There is a serious shortage of manpower, a serious reduction in quality training and a failure of upper management to realise that "production line" techniques do not work with the unpredictability of the aviation industry. There are just too many variables.Back in the good old days, the engineering managers came up through the ranks of engineering. They knew what worked and what didn't... and they knew how to fix airplanes. I miss the good old days :)Unfortunately, if passengers want their $1 airfares, they have to understand that it's not only a meal and a set of headphones they're choosing to forego.Q>

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Guest D17S

It's not even so much about money. My guys have been I.D'd by the feds as having "systemic failings within its Mx program effecting all 40,000 task-direction related documents." We've been alerting mgmt that this (or that) task sequence doesn't work for years. The task sequence still could not possibly have been accomplished, but somehow it still gets signed. The real problem is that the investigation had to be accomplished (and the finding uncovered) by a FSDO that was not associated with the airline. Everyone, from shift mgr to the FAA's PMI thought this kind of short-cutting was normal. There reason it had become systemic was because it had become a culture norm. Social outliers have been removed (and now have lots of time on their hands) so internal voices for change have become muted. The US congress is battling its FAA to enact rules that rotate supervisory FAA officials every several years. This really needs to happen. In this case though, its a bit late. The whole structure from FSDO top-dog to the shift manager needs to be rotated . . . out. It's the only non-evolutionary way short of a failure-centric 'shot across the bow', or two. That bottle blowout might be more reasonably seen as an eye-opening MiracLe. No one was hurt. If only we could catch such a break. The ~ 7th largest airline in the world needs to do better than this.

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Guest shogun007

ATSB MEDIA RELEASE 2008/28 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Philippines 30 July 2008IntroductionAs you are aware the ATSB is leading this safety investigation with the assistance of a number of other organisations and agencies, including the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines, the National Transportation Safety Board and the Federal Aviation Administration of the USA, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority of Australia, Qantas and Boeing.Flight Data RecorderThe data from the flight data recorder has been recovered and downloaded. Initial analysis of the data indicates that the aircraft decent from the decompression event at 29,000 feet to the altitude of 10,000 feet, where no masks are required, took about five and half minutes, with an average descent rate of about 4,000 fpm. The ATSB is still verifying and analysing the data on the recorder.DoorThe ATSB can confirm that it appears that part of an oxygen cylinder and valve entered the passenger cabin and impacted the number 2 right door frame handle, thereby moving the handle part way towards the open position. However, the door handle mechanism has been sheared as it is designed to do if an attempt is made to open the door in flight, so the position of the door handle is not representative of the position of the door lock mechanism or the security of the door. The investigation team have confirmed that the door latches were still engaged. Additionally the door is of the plug-type that first needs to be pulled into the cabin, rotated 90 degrees then pushed out to open. So there was never any danger of the door opening.Cabin MasksThe investigation team have surveyed the passenger cabin including the oxygen masks. The team found that most of the oxygen masks had deployed correctly from the passenger modules and had been pulled to activate the flow of oxygen to the mask. According to the airline, there were 346 passengers on board. Inspection by the ATSB shows that 484 masks had deployed, that is, dropped from the ceiling. Of those, 418 had been activated by pulling on the mask to activate the flow of oxygen. Only a small number of masks appeared to have had the elastic retaining strap adjusted by the passengers. It also appears that a small number of masks did not deploy from the passenger modules. Investigations into this aspect of the accident are continuing.Interviews are continuing with the cabin crew in relation to this issue. Additionally, the ATSB is preparing a passenger survey that will be sent to all passengers to gather information about their experience of the event. The ATSB also plans to interview those passengers that encountered specific problems either with the masks or the decompression event.Oxygen SystemThe investigation team is still examining the oxygen system, including liaising with the manufacturer to determine if the flow of oxygen was adequate for the five and a half minute descent to 10,000 feet, where the masks were no longer required.ILSThe team have confirmed that the aircrafts three Instrument Landing Systems (ILS) and the anti-skid system were not available for the arrival and landing at Manila. However, evidence to date indicates that all the aircrafts main systems, including engines and hydraulics were functioning normally. The approach to Manila airport was conducted in visual conditions. It should be noted that other pilot navigation instruments (VOR and NDB) were still available to the crew should the conditions not have been visual. Additionally, Air Traffic Control could have provided radar assistance if the crew had required it.Flight CrewFrom the evidence gathered to date it appears that the flight crew have responded to and managed the emergency situation extremely well. It is apparent that they followed the procedures they have trained for in simulators, which ensured the best possible outcome for the aircraft, the passengers and crew.Notify ATSBA reminder that the ATSB requests that any passengers that experienced issues during the flight, or those who photographed or videoed the incident, contacts us via email atsbinfo@atsb.gov.au , telephone: 1800 020 616, or facsimile 02 6247 3117.The investigation will need time to review and analyse the evidence collected to date and to plan and undertake further evidence gathering and analysis. It is difficult to say how long an investigation such as this will take. However, a preliminary factual report will be released by the ATSB within about 30 days and, should the need for urgent safety action by any agency be identified, the ATSB will immediately notify the relevant agencies who are best placed to address the issue. At this point, unless there is any significant development in the investigation, further media conferences are not anticipated and further information will be released as part of the ATSBs preliminary report.

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>"The plane is believed to have suddenly plunged from 30,000>feet to 10,000 feet.">>Umm, yes, which the pilots would have COMMANDED it to do, as>is standard procedure for an explosive decompression.>>Does it ever make you wonder what else the news media gets>totally wrong if they're always this wrong and misleading>about aircraft stories?There has never been a requirement for the news to provide context to any story - just a requirement to be minimally factual. Titiliation is what obtains attention. A responsible consumer of information and news will look for the context and a lazy consumer will just give the "ooh and aah" response which the news peiced intend to elicit. Hence we have a focus on crime, disaster, social decay and other such things that make people shake their heads. At best, I view stories from primary news outlets to be an opener to further serious investigation.Good thing nobody got hurt.


Jeff Bea

I am an avid globetrotter with my trusty Lufthansa B777F, Polar Air Cargo B744F, and Atlas Air B748F.

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"Oxygen SystemThe investigation team is still examining the oxygen system, including liaising with the manufacturer to determine if the flow of oxygen was adequate for the five and a half minute descent to 10,000 feet, where the masks were no longer required."The bottles feed oxygen to 3 pressure regulators via a common feed manifold. The absence of part of this would surely have affected the flow of oxygen to the passengers.Looks like the aircraft will be out of service until sometime next year. Boeing have the people to work on the aircraft, but there are no hangars available for the work to be done.I hear that an updated report will be issued soon by the safety authorities. Should be very interesting.Cheers.Q> イアン

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Guest D17S

>> The absence of part of this would surely have affected the flow of oxygen to the passengers.What!? Say it's not so! Not only does this O2 pressure provide flow to the masks, but it also triggers the O2 mask's bay-door release latch. I remember doing an O2 mask drop check on a 742 years ago. Only about half of them dropped. Our UAL/SFO A-check contractor really got a workout over the next Several Days. Those regulator valves (just aft of the fwd/lwr cargo door) got changed, several times. I sincerely doubt it ever got fixed . . . but someone finally signed it.

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"What!? Say it's not so! Not only does this O2 pressure provide flow to the masks, but it also triggers the O2 mask's bay-door release latch."Well, I hear that the regulator for that bottle had separated from the plumbing, so that would have provided an escape path for the oxygen (the check valve function of the regulator would have gone). It would almost have been like pumping oxygen into a T-piece with one of the legs open to atmosphere. Depending on the restrictions in the passenger feed lines, I'd imagine some oxygen might have flowed to the passengers, but with oxygen leaking into the cargo compartment (and presumably straight out the hole in the fuselage), the oxygen would have depleted faster than normal.Very few 02 masks _didn't_ deploy (a good sign for our maintenance), so, yes, there was enough pressure initially to activate the overhead PSU door latches.Anyway, if you read aviation medical journals on pax oxygen systems, they are inefficient at the best of times (the masks simply don't seal properly to force 02 into passengers' lungs). I'd say the low cruise altitude and quick descent time helped somewhat.CheersQ> イアン

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Guest SIX

You guys are laughing about the POSSIBILITY of having a checklist in your car. I think it is halarious, because I DO have a checklist in my Peterbilt! Look, hear me out! It has 27 guages and 22 switches. I have a GPS, system, a comms (cb radio) panel with more frequencies than you have hair on your uni-brow (not to mention the variable speed linear amp), an XM radio (MLB please), a Sirius Radio (got to have my NFL), a laptop computer mounted with a bt keyboard and mouse and to top it all off, my gear stick is as high as my HEAD! So, I need the checklist!Wilson HinesMy Blog: http://www.wilsonhines.com --------------------------------------http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpghttp://fs2crew.com/linepilot.jpghttp://online.vatsimindicators.net/837438/3074.png>>(On this topic: Am I the only one who sometimes thinks to>>>myself 'V1' when approaching a traffic light that goes to>>>orange and I decide to run it? No-one? That's just me is>it?>>>Ah I see...)>>>>Mark,>>>>I hate to go off topic but I couldn't resist, let me tell>you>>this, I don't callout "V1" in my head at traffic lights, but>I>>do feel like I'm turning on the strobes and landing lights>>when I turn on my headlights. Just the "click" sound makes>me>>think of it:D>>>>I guess I'll soon be saying "Starting Engine Number 1" when>>turning the ignition, "Packs On" when turning on the A/C,>even>>"Taxi Checklist Please" to a friend sitting in the passenger>>seat... :-xxrotflmao *:-* >>>And dont forget about the approach checklist when youre>pulling up to your driveway :-doh.

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