Frankfurt Overload Event

[marcom 139]

Hi to all online aviators!I'm wondering, how many, if any, of you guys participated at yesterday's Vatsim event at Frankfurt?If yes, please post your opinions, especially about the procedures and operations in use.I'm asking this, because this is probably one of the forums where the more experienced pilots hang out and want to hear their side of the event.I was one of the active controllers yesterday, and I must say that things got a little out of hand. We tried to mix two systems guiding the aircraft towards the ILS which didn't work out quite the way we wanted to, but we, at least I, did learn a lot!Please post any comments, opinions, critics, etc!Thanks,Mark

[Guest Muppet22]

HiI was BAW908N/BAW909U in PIC to and from EDDF from EGLL. I thought the ATC service was very professional, very similar to that found at the real world Frankfurt. There were 2 problems though : 1) People DO NOT and for some reason WILL NOT listen out before transmitting, they just join the frequency, press their PTT button and off they go. This is SOOOO frustrating for me as a pilot sitting there listening and even more so for the ATCO's. 2) Sometimes the traffic levels seemed to demand too much of a controller and therefore the service became slow i.e. I was waiting for 15 mins for my clrnc, but this I can bare with. Overall - top effort and the results show all the hard work that was put in.

[marcom 139]

Hi Tom!Thanks for your kind words. Ah yes I remember BAW908N inbound to EDDFI can confirm the stress the pilots caused that didn't listen before transmitting. I was doing director at the time and had to give a lot of aircraft a lot of vectors and transmitting-eager pilots didn't help the situation. This was also one of the areas that was poor from our part of coordination. We should not have had transitions aswell as radar vectoring in use. Either one or the other, but the two don't mix. Most pilots simply overshot the turn to final and had to be re-vectored to re-intercept the ILS. This was a lot of work and could have been avoided. Lesson learned!I'm curious what the other pilots have to say about this, aswell as the other controllers' point of view. Overall I enjoyed the event a lot, and we had a lot of traffic. Luck was on our side considering that no server crashed nor striked. Voice quality remained the same during the entire event.I hope the pilots enjoyed the event just as we did, and I look forward to the next event.Greetings,Mark

[kiek 1,215]

Hi Mark,I participated in KLM1669 with my PIC-POSKY-v3 and i really enyoyed the event. There was a lot of traffic indeed. I had on a separate computer the ServinfO and WhazzUp screens and they were very populated. More than 110 flights in- and outbound EDDF!I was a very nice experience for me, that you do not have to bother about the other traffic, that's the ATCs job ;-) I fly on Frankfurt a lot, and yesterday i -like always- flew the ETARU25 transitions, which gave me a beautiful sight of the field. The only thing that was different, was that the instruction to turn right hdg 160 came rather late, but i guess that was because of the traffic and in a way it proved the advantage of this transistion as a means to space divide traffic. I established on the ils of 25R and all went well, but i noticed on my TCAS that another plane, BAW192, was 900 feet above me and slightly ahead of me. He speeded up and descended in front of me down to the rwy25R (and i slowed down) but he came to close on another KLM plane in front of me. Therefore the BAW192 got a go around... I think this could have been foreseen and thus prevented buy the ATC... But anyway, i liked the event a lot, and hope to fly to EDDF in dense traffic again soon.kiek

[Guest Martin]

I was flying LH3055, an A320, into EDDF yesterday, and overall everything went well.Unfortunately I had neglected the transitions, so I had to rely on radar vectors.There was some confusion since both runway 25L and 25R were used for arrivals. One ATIS stated "arrivals expect 25R", so that's what I did initially, and set up everything for a 25R arrival. Then I was not clearly informed by the controller what runway I should expect, and really didn't know this until I got cleared for the ILS. (I know, I could have asked, but somehow I always seem to expect that the controllers will tell me, and I don't want to take up any unnecessary "air time".) When I got cleared for the approach, I thought I heard "25R", and replied with that. When I called established on the approach for 25R, I learned that I was really supposed to be inbound for 25L. So I switched to 25L in the FMGC, but apparently the autopilot didn't catch up. Thus, I didn't realise I was still inbound for 25R until I contacted the tower, and then I turned off the A/P and F/D to land on 25L instead.Other than that, everything was fine. :-)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

[Ericson 0]

I'm not quite happy about this event - I think that rate of trafiic was to high. I was flying from Warsaw, Poland. For the first reply via text from EDDF_S_CTR i was waiting about 10 min. Then i've recived clr to d/m FL110 over PSA and that was the last contact with ATC for next 1 hour :-( I was trying to contact CTR via text but no reply - even there was no HOLD intructions so i was left on my own in busy airspace :-(. I was flying HOLD as published but without clearance from ATC , also other pilots were having the same problem - no contact with ATC via text. Sometime there were 3 planes holding over PSA @ FL110 - little scary The strange thing was that pilots with callsings DLH or BAW were reciving reply from EDDF_S_CTR with minimum delay - pilots with generally "eastern" callsigns such as LOT , MAH even TAP were left on their own witout any interest from ATC :-madAfter 1 hour sensless flying S_CTR saw me and hand off me to APP , then DIR and landingBut there was one good moment in this event for me - was establish on ILS25R but there was traffic on the rwy so TWR ask me to make transition from 25R to 25L - you can see it on the screensmy screens from EDDF http://www.forum.mewa.net/viewtopic.php?t=423sorry for poor languageregardsEricson ( LOT431 during this event )

[marcom 139]

Sorry to hear that!We had a few traffic management problems and the delays you mentioned happened to everyone, trust me!"western callsigns" were not prioritized, even if that was your first impression. We had a lot of aircraft in a very short time and were simply not prepared to meet the demand. We had to open a few holdings and send aircraft into them, and unfortunately a few aircraft were overlooked. Same happened in the north, with aircraft holding over GED and MTR.Still there were some aircraft that were overlooked that came in from the north and then were only contacted while being 50 miles out. I'm sorry for the inconveniences and I truly understand the frustration it had to be. Today we held a two hour debriefing and talked about these problems and also found resolutions for them so the next time there will be an event in Frankfurt, we'll be ready!I hope we will have the pleasure of serving you better next time,Regards,Mark

[Guest]

I rarely say a BAD thing about ANY event....here it comes......BUT - I will say that traffic flow control was a bit slow - I took a WONDERFUL tour of the countryside about 40 DME east, then south then west of EDDF - was in 3 holds.... finally over the PSA NDB - I got cleared inbound - 45 mins after I made it to EPINO ( the three planes I was with were down 30 min before I )Several times I called controllers via both voice and text - I think they were overworked - It was an enjoyable event - glad I wasn't paying for the JET-A though I am not critical of the controllers - just think they needed a tad more online for this event and more inbound flow control....Richard GreenVATUSA4Events and VA Director

[marcom 139]

In our debriefing tonight we came to the conclusion that we need around 14 controllers to get the job done right.Yesterday, we only had 8 controllers available.Our biggest failure was that we mixed two approach systems together, that did not work out. (For the experienced: transitions aswell as vectoring)As this was basically the first mega event, we were not aware that this could cause such a great problem, but now we know, we will improve the system!Just wait and see at the next EDDF Flyin :-)

[Vulcan 14]

Hi Tom,>1) People DO NOT and for some reason WILL NOT listen out before transmitting, they just join the frequency, press their PTT button and off they go.

[Vulcan 14]

Ericson,I was not on the event but I suspect that the lack of response from ATC was not down to your callsign but due to using text.I know controllers are supposed to give equal service to text and voice (and will get their wrists slapped if they don't :-)) but during a heavy traffic event I would think voice operation is much easier for both sides and thus text gets forgotten.It is a shame because people who cannot use voice, for whatever reason, feel excluded, just wonder if it would be possible to have a seperate 'text' controller at busy positions.Rgds

[Guest]

My 2 pence worth...I often find the "Overload" events are "Over-rated". I say that because of, amoung other things, the limitations of Roger Wilco and Squawk Box...they simply can not handle a real world level of traffic. Add to this pilots who insist on not following voice communication protocols, step all over each other because they are impatient, not reposnding to ATC commands quickly enough, pilots who speak so slowly I want to pull my own head off, not wait for the other pilot to respond to an instruction before stepping on him, or asking questions like "how do I set up a hold?"..etc...etc..etc. I have done the LAX and UK overloads and managed to squeak through with minimal delays, but I think I got lucky. This is NO fault of the controllers who generally do an outstanding job.The other concern with overloads is that when you put 20 or 30 aircraft on the ground, your final approach becomes a slide show in FS. I usually disable or restrict the amount of traffic, but that can lead to problems on the ground as it takes time to re-load everyone after I land...I run over people waiting for the text-ground controller to respond ;-) Don't get me started on text-controllers, especially Tower-Text ATC...Until we get smoother operating systems, connections, and some kind of standardized pilot testing/rating before admittance to these shows, the problems will persist. The controllers in most cases have their s--t together, it is the pilots who ruin the show couple with a system/applications that can't handle the pace....I am referring to Lag and R/W overload.I wish I had answers to at least the system problems...Roger Wilco and Squawk Box have not had major modifications since they came out. They are freeware so you get what you pay for, but there seems to be potential for development, even if it becomes payware. Add to this the bandwidth/server constraints...Maybe it is time for a PAY FOR USE VATSIM system as an alternative FREE USE system to weed out the serious simmers from the pretenders?? Maybe "Overloads" could be handled with a PAY-FOR-PLAY registration only policy so as to control the flow to a manageable level. People register and are given an ID and password for the event...just a thought or two..Don't everybody throw stones at once ;-)"Worse, how can it get any bloody worse...Jehova..."Rob.

[Guest]

Ya know - I for one....Would love a PAY service.... two things... would give us substaintal capital to PAY people to improve the software ( not work on it in spare time after REAL WORLD jobs , and LIFE )2. It would provide for infrastructure - wouldn't it be nice to have 3 or 4 - 2 meg SDSL lines, and several SDSL roger wilco servers??Maybe one day - Richard GreenVATUSA4Events and VA Director

[marcom 139]

Hi Rob!While I personally wouldn't like the idea of vatsim going payware, and I doubt it will, I do see your point.My biggest problem is Roger Wilco. In my opinion it is a pain in the a** software, with an awful quality and a huge lag time. We are currently in the lookout for different voice softwares, but the problem is that it would have to be changed worldwide! The new SB would have to be programmed to handle its auto-change etc.There are quite a few voice apps out there but we are currently testing them to see if they meet our standards. If they do, we might contact the chiefs at vatsim to see what they think. But this is currently in a pre-alpha stage ;-)All I know is that I want to get rid of Roger Wilco ASAP. It has been around for ages and hasn't been improved.RW's limitations played a grand role at our event. Pilots who changed to a new frequency and then didn't wait to listen in to hear if someone else was broadcasting simply pressed their PTT button and off they went. That not only annoyed the other pilots, but especially the controllers. I don't want to name names but there were some special cases of not exactly very disciplined pilots. I know it must be tough flying holdings and taking a sightseeing trip across half Germany, but why make it hard for the other pilots aswell?But as I said, we learned from this event a great deal and we're planning a new traffic management system that will come into service soon enough.Anyways, that's enough for now ;-)Greetings,Mark

[Guest]

If payware is not going to happen, then I would suggest a Pilot qualification or rating system of some kind should be implemented ASAP, not only for Overloads, but for general daily use. Go to LAX/JFK/ORD on a busy night and listen to little Timmy playing with his Roger Wilco voice activiation while learning how to clog traffic in a FS Cessna ;-) I avoid Chicago mainly for that reason. These kind of pilots need to be screened and pointed to resources to learn protocol, tested, and then granted priviledges. VATSIM should be a priviledge, requiring standards to be met by pilots and ATC, not treated as a toy.Maybe only "A1" rated pilots are permitted to participate in "overloads" and certain areas at peak times...I know this develops a "Have and Have Not" situation, but I think it is a necessary evil to save the reality factor at the overloads and to be able to work within a less than perfect software environment.My next chapter will be on text controllers and the VATSIM regualtions regarding the use of text ATC....maybe over at the VATSIM forum where I will be promptly ignored ;-) ...kidding....I live for VATSIM and the regular junkies know I am a pusher.Rob.