Frankfurt Overload Event

[Guest]

....and I agree with all of it except...the text thing...VATSIM really should be ALL voice, with text as a back up for R/W's shortcomings. If an ATC is bad/new on voice (hence the reason they are using text), they are likely to be worse on text. If ATC or a pilot does not know the proper voice comm protocols, they should spend more time listening to their scanner, that's how I learned and many others I know.I understand that VATSIM wants to have policies of inclusion for everyone, but from a pilot perspective, text is highly unrealisitc, very difficult to manage when flying, and can really mess things up when at critical stages of flight.If "S3" is required before you can control with voice, then I suggest S3 is the entry level requirement to be a VATSIM controller. Same standards must also apply to pilots, I know this is a two way street. There are many ways to learn protocol and become proficient with voice, as I said, a scanner is the best way IMHO. My hand help Radio Shack $20 Jetstream radio is all I had since I was 9 years old, by the time I was 10, I think I was "proficient" enough for VATSIM.Over and Out.Rob.

[Vulcan 14]

Just two observations Rob.If VATSIm *was* limited to voice only then members with hearing difficulty would be precluded from taking part.I only have very limited experience with inexpesive scanners and that experience shows that their range is very limited and if manual tuned almost impossible to lock onto one clear frequency.This menas that unless you live very near an airport you will not be able to learn RT from the scanner.I am lucky, I was taught RT many years ago but in a different field so although I didn't know the correct thing to say for ATC I did appreciate the need for discipline over the airwaves.IMO RT would improve a lot with more discipline and there are resources out there to teach the actual ATC phraseology.Just my thoughts.Rgds

[Guest]

I can understand exceptions for hearing impaired using text. I have yet to see the exception be requested.My hand held radio (not a scanner) is only good around airports as you say, but there are multiple links to live atc sites on the internet. Also, it does not take long to understand how to request clearance for a flight plan, so one or two trips to the airport should do it with the $20 receiver. There are also various texts on ATC protocol as you mentioned for people who never visit airports...although I have never met a "Sim-Head" that does not frequent airports once in a while ;-)Last, I was told not to even bother logging on to "SATCO" until I knew ##### I was doing. I made sure I used other "quieter" on-line ATC services until I was confident enough to sign up with SATCO. This warning seems to have become largely ignored these days as I often hear pilots talking to ATC who have no clue ##### they are doing...."I'd like to takeoff please"....I could just feel the ATC controller cringing and biting his tongue....luckily, Stiffy was not there.Rob.

[Guest MB327]

Cart before the Horse! Gentelmen, with all due respect,First off - text is REQUIRED for hearing impaired or otherwise unable situations so don't let the next comment offend anyone. Most people I know learned to talk before they could read or write. If text was as preferred a way to handle communications with ATC as some supporters would suggest, airlines would have an extra person in the cockpit glued to a keyboard and you could forget about GA flying solo. No argument for "learn text first" holds water. NONE! The solution is to learn BOTH or your not ready for VATSIM, control or pilot.

[Guest]

I support your statement so much it hurts me to use text to support it ;-)I have to agree with the "Hard Line" - with VATSIM ATC, go voice or go home should be the motto.If you can't handle ATC on voice, you are not ready for VATSIM.Rob.

[Guest ielchitz]

Boys, Boys, Boys...I must offer a rebuttal here (why must I always go against two of my favorite pilots ).I'll start again by saying: "ATC is hard". Many people who do it on VATSIM make it look and sound easy - it isn't.Why do we have people START on text. I'll give you a simple answer followed by a more complex example.You can scroll back a box full of text.You can not scroll back voice communications.It's that simple. As pilots, we all know sometimes how easy it is to miss a call or ask the ATC to say something again. You only have ONE person talking to you. The controller has MANY people talking to them. Sometimes it is really hard to remember who called you for clnc (and in what order).. It's especially hard for new people to understand what: "(tchhhhh) SoCal, Citation Two niner Echo Bravo on the Ground (tchhhhhh) ..n Nuys with Romeo VFR following V186 to the east."Ok what's this guys call sign? Where the hell is he? And whats the callsign for "Citation Two Niner Echo Bravo"?On text it would have been:N29EB: Socal, with you an KVNY with Romeo VFR to the east following V186.Now I can "SEE" his call sign - and thus I can find his target and get him to "tag up".Also consider this exchange for a newer controller:Tower's Voice: "ACA856 is cleared to San Francisco via the Ventura2 departure, San Marcus Transition then as filed, after departure maintain 5000 expect FL260, 10 minutes after, departure freq 124.30, squawk 5011"Voice 1: Tower EagleFlight 1028 crossin Jetsa for the north side.Voice 2: Tower good afternoon, Qantas 936 heavy is on the ground at the bradley terminal with information Romeo, we are requesting airways clearance to "Seed-neee" as filed. Qantas 936 Heavy.Voice 3: Skyhawk Two Papa Tango ready to go 25 Right at foxtrot.(Now the controller can't remember what anyone said - too much to remember, and usually because they can not remember or scroll back they freeze....)Voice 4: Tower good m..(static)..at the..(static)..request..[static]..if you have time?Voice 5: Tower, Speed buhhhd 221 is ready for taxi.Voice 6 (at the same time as voice 1): Tower can you say again for Air Canada's 856? You were stepped on?Voice 1 (at the same time as voice 6): Eagleflight 1028 Short final 24RSounds like: Taowglhan ytea djtuwa shejd (static) brajutshi trasdefrane lmarjon stepped on..stepped on..stepped on..stepped on.(Can you tell I am having fun with this? It sounds like a normal night - and is much more dangerous when these aircraft are ALL actually in the air and all need some sort of safety instructions...)As you can see.. all hell breaks loose at this point. The controller would probably forget all about the guy on final (who will probably land anyhow) and spend some time struggling as to what he should do next. You must also remember that the controller might take a few seconds to even figure out who is who? Eagleflight? Speedbird? Skyhawk Two Papa Tango? Is Skyhawk some new airline?On text: he could scroll back and check out what was said - and easily identify WHO said it:TWR-->ACA856: "ACA856, is cleared to San Francisco via the Ventura2 departure, San Marcus Transition then as filed, after departure maintain 5000 expect FL260, 10 minutes after, departure freq 124.30, squawk 5011"EGF1028: With you Jetsa for north side.QFA936: Good afternoon, QFA936 is on the ground at the bradley terminal with information Romeo, we are requesting airways clearance to "Seed-neee" as filed. QFA936.N432PT: Ready to go 25R @ F.AAL327: Good morning with you at the gate request IFR clnc to KLAS and I have a question about the LOOP2 if you have time.BAW221: Ready for taxi.ACA856: (doesnt need to ask for a readback - he can scroll back and read his IFR)EGF1028: Short final 24R----------Guys - what I am trying to say is - it's not easy. And learning on text not only gives the controllers a chance to look at everything that was said - it also gives them a chance to practice the proper phraseology by typing it over and over and over - for that day when they finally do go to text - because when things start to heat up and your giving a guy his approach clearance.. you don't have time to think of WHAT to SAY - it's simply a matter of saying the proper phrase and plugging it in:PTAC (Position Turn Altitude Clearance) + Info 9 JETSA LEFT 220 2500 ILS 24R = "Air Canada's 856 heavy is Niner miles from Jetsa, Turn left heading 220 maintain 2 thousand 5 hundred until established cleared ILS runway 2 4 Right Approach"Please remember that many of the guys on text who are being trained will one day turn out to be an awesome controller at Tower, Approach, and Center - it all takes time - and you guys putting up with the new guys is the only way that they will eventually learn through training and experience to become the type of controller you all want to fly with.-----In closing (finally) - I understand this from both perspectives (controlling and flying) as I have been on both sides of the scopes extensively.Ian ElchitzFormer "text only" student

[Guest]

You make a good point, but I did mention that text is an excellent back-up for the shortcomings of R/W...and it can quiet a nosiy situation with people stepping on each other when the controller stops talking and just fires out text commands...within a few minutes, the step-on-ya's will get the point and stop stepping, the controller regains control, voice becomes an option again ;-)Maybe VATSIM could set up a sort of virtual "play pen" for newbies to get familiar, an area open to new contollers and pilots to learn in...maybe Chicago could (is) be this area?There is a lot to discuss here, and a lot of ideas to be hashed out. Hopefully everyone with an opinion will come to Toronto in July to express it! ..and it is an opportunity to throw stones at me and tell me how ungrateful I am ;-)Rob.

[Guest ielchitz]

Rob,** WARNING ** - I have a great Arm .Unfortunately I am moving from Calgary to Winnipeg on July 1 - so the chances of me making it to hang out and drink a few Canadians with you and 327 is somewhere between slim and none.Discussion and the free expression of opinions is the only way we ever move forward .Ian.

[Vulcan 14]

>Last, I was told not to even bother logging on to "SATCO" until I knew ##### I was doing...."I'd like to takeoff please"....I could just feel the ATC controller cringing and biting his tongue....luckily, Stiffy was not there.

[Vulcan 14]

>If text was as preferred a way to handle communications with ATC as some supporters would suggest, airlines would have an extra person in the cockpit glued to a keyboard...Problem is we don't (usually) and I am amazed how the pilots managed in the early days when there was no RW. I have tried text very few times and it is 'no go' on approach.

[Guest MB327]

Isn't it great that we can offer up opinions freely and respectfully disagree. I love this kind of dialog. A very interesting group of thoughts have been collected here.To extend the discussion, I think that the main places that text becomes such a big problem are the locations that become very busy on a regular basis. Perhaps those centers should reconsider when and where those text-only controllers are positioned. But look at me stating my one sided opinions. I have never controlled and don't want to. Man, that is hard stuff that I find no personal joy in. Let me repeat my nightly remarks, "thanks control - great job once again."

[B777ER 2,484]

Hey Ian Elchitz,I read this above:"his past Saturday night I had my butt kicked for 4 hours while handling ONLY the LAX_APP/DEP sector. On top of the pilots I had to coordinate EVERYTHING with LAX_TWR, ONT_APP, SNA_APP, BUR_APP, SBA_APP, LAX_ABD_CTR, and LAX_C_CTR. You could not imagine how much is going on in the background. (BTW I didn't recognize anyone coming through my sky from this forum except for "Canadian Triple Three Niner")."I was JBU7 (Jetblue 7) coming in from Denver to LAX and then departing LAX for LAS. I heard you say at one point to someone calling with some inane request that you had 60 some aircraft and you were a little busy. You and the guy doing the controlling at LAS were top notch. I had a ball last Saturday night flying with you guys down there in SOCAL. By the way, can't wait for the Cali. Screaming event. Signed up for 3 of those 575 flights.Couple things I have to say on this. First off, when I started about 2 weeks ago on VATSIM I made sure I was prepared. I used to control for NAVAID back when they were popular and actually got a real copy of the FAA ATC manual and studied up on proper procedures. Before flying anywhere on VATSIM, I make sure I have each aiports DP's, STAR's, ground maps, etc... I think the problem is that pilots just log on, set up a half-baked flightplan and away they go. Some do not take the time to generate a real world type flightplan using the correct routes, DP's, STAR's etc... A pilot rating system on VATSIM would be good but what about those with say just 30-40 hours but fly by the rules and know what they are doing? Are they newbies? About RW versus text. I understand the need to include everybody but when you get an overload type event, it only makes sense to me to have everyone on voice with text used as a backup. On regular days, text could again be used as primary if needed. This California screaming event should prove very interesting to say the least. By reading what they said about the Frankfurt event, I will make sure I carry more than enough fuel for holds. If pilots would follow this one simple rule which is, when you switch over to a new voice controller, wait 10 seconds to make sure your not jumping into the middle of a conversation, then transmit. Back when I controlled in the New York Center area, I would have to get on RW and tell all pilots to stay off the radio so I could start issuing commands to aircraft otherwise I would get 3 or 4 of them converging at the Asalt intersection. VATSIM has ten times the traffic so I feel for you guys. Getting back to this past Saturday, I was amazed by the amount of crap people said on the radio. Some of my fellow pilots have got to realize this ain't AT&T where you can talk all day. Be brief and get off for crying out loud!!! I remember when I switched over from Salt Lake CTR to LAX CTR this past Saturday, I had to wait until I was 20 miles inside the CTR boundary to make my intitial call. You know why? Cause I did not want to get in the middle of other pilots conversations. Not a thing happened in that 20 miles either. so don't stress thinking that, Oh my God, I got to check in right this second, I am .5nm inside there CTR. Relax, take another sip of coffee and you'lll be fine. Don't be a Timmy (for you 856, lol)

[Guest MB327]

Eric,Funny you should mention NAVAID. What callsign did you use in those days? I flew as MB327 and could often be spotted in the company ACA856, USAir282, Aloha1, TexasAir252, Speedbird1, and a host of others. All of whom can be found on a regular basis on VATSIM today. We had some great people flying together in those "learning years". Mr. "Mike" Miami Ctr, "Jason" Cleveland Ctr, "Zane" New York Center are also either controlling or flying on VATSIM. One of my biggest dissappointments over the last year has been my inability to convert one of the GREAT ONES, "Jim R" DFW/CHI/NY Ctr.

[Guest]

NavAid was the proverbial "play pen", an excellent place to learn with patient and forgiving contollers like Jim R. I too with he was at VATSIM. Mike (Miami) Engel only flies now, he was a good controler as well. Zane...wonder what happened to him? NavAid also had an excellent philosophy relevant to this thread....NavAid was ALL VOICE, no exceptions! NavAid's downfall, IMHO, was the reliance on FS multiplayer connections which were very unreliable. SATCO continued to grow and attract more traffic at any given time. I wonder if NavAid is still going?The chatter-factor is something the controller has to control. If people are chatty or taking 30 seconds to acknowledge a simple instruction, then I suggest the controller should give the spankings and not let them get away with it. Regular PIC users also know that there is the "secret" PIC comm frequency for PIC-Heads to use outside of ATC zones for the chat.

[B777ER 2,484]

MB327 & ACA856,I remember both of you guys when I controlled NY CTR. I was the only one to set up a web page for my center when jason redid the web site way back. Boy those days were fun. I remember aloha 1 and Speedbird and the others. Jim R. and I had long conversations back then about controlling and the like. Using Homeradar and FS Nav to control was fun. Not as good as Procontroller I am sure but we made due. Navaid is still around and still has the same web site but no one goes there anymore. I am surporised Jason had not shut it down. Maybe he just drifted off and there is no one to shut it down? I remember having you guys all lined up for the Canarsie VOR 13L approach. Those were the days of simple times. I wonder what Jim R. is doing these days? Ah well. Look for me on VATSIM guys. I am either DAL483 when flying for my virtual airline or JBU7 (Jetblue) when I just want to fly somewhere in the A320 or A330.