This topic has been very interesting!And I still maintain that it would have to be a VERY experienced and proffesional PIC'er with everything going for him to pull it off.I think you're all under-estimating the "panic factor" of being in the front of a 767. I recently took a friend who is an avid simmer (PIC among others) in to observe one of my cyclics. His comments were that we did everything so quickly he couldn't keep up with us. At the end he was given the opportunity of jumping in the seat, and said how different it was to actually be IN the seat, as opposed to just looking at a screen. When you're surrounded by the cockpit it is a very different feeling.Some thoughts....Lets say you were on a Qantas 763 doing HNL-SYD, and halfway through the flight all 3 pilots die with food poisoning, and now you're it....How would you get into the flightdeck to start with? (I guess we better not actually discuss this one.... just assume you can somehow).How would you slide the seat back and remove the pilots?How would you adjust the seat so you could reach all the controls?How would you determine where you were?How would you go about establishing radio contact with someone... which radui would you use... which frequency... where are the push to talk switches... how do you select a radio to use... how do you adjust volume...How would you know which airport was closest?Would you go to the closest airport... or continue to Sydney?How do you determine if you have enough fuel to make a particular airport... or enough to make Sydney?How would you find out the weather at your chosen airport?What are the wind limitations for an autoland... which manual would these be located in... where on the aircraft is this manual?How do you know if the aircraft is even certified for autoland... perhaps it is operating under an MEL that prohibits autoland?Would you do anything to the tranponder?How would you find out which runways if any, at your chosen airport are certified for autoland?Would you know how to operate the radar to avoid any weather?If you couldn't autoland for some reason what would you do... (and no... dont say youd disconnect it and hand-fly).Where would you find the ILS frequency and OBS for the chosen runway?How would you load the FMC? (Do you know what the DIR INTC button on the FMC picture provided by Ian does?)And thats all I can think of for now :-P

The VOR radio simply skips the ILS frequencies when you're turning the frequency knob. It would go from 109.65 to 109.8 in one click, as 109.7 is an ILS frequency.As far as updating the position from an ILS goes.... I'm not too sure which radio it uses to be honest! The ILS display never changed, but thats not to say its not using it. But I have a feeling it uses the VOR radio for the auto-updating, atleast from the DME part of an ILS.

I'm laughing at this thread more than the one in the Hanger Forum.It's really cute that some people think a $70 simulator is an adequate training for an emergency landing, but as mentioned in the other forum, some people completely gnore the fear factor. They think they'll calmly stroll to the cockpit, strap in, grab the mouse - errr-- or whatever pilots use and land the plane.Flying a real plane in an emergency is nothing like sitting in front of a computer monitor. Even time in a full motion sim doesn't compare since there is no real risk of injury or death involved.The biggest problem in this situation is the real danger that people will die. The adrenaline flowing through your body would probably make it difficult for you to land your FS plane, let alone a real aircraft you'd have no experience flying.When I play NASCAR 4 on my computer I can drive 180 mph in traffic while having a conversation with my wife. Using the logic of this thread, I should quit my job and join the Winston Cup circuit. In real life, I doubt I could drive 130 mph without shaking like a leaf. The difference? It's a whole lot different when there is real risk invovled.Enjoy the sim for what it is. It's a fantastic computer game. It's a great way for us to further our love of aviation. But don't believe for a second that it prepares you to handle this scenerio.Praying you always have a healthly flight crew.....ed

Ed,I understand your views on this, but there's something that I generally don't understand...If someone has enough knowledge about the said aircraft's systems and operation, how would flying it on AP all the way down differ from the situation when an ATP is flying it on the AP all the way down ? Would the aircraft somehow "sniff" that the person in the left seat is "just a PC pilot". Would all of the aircraft's systems mystically start malfunctioning in every possible way, to further strenghten the point that ONLY an ATP could bring her down, no matter what ?I'm sorry but I just don't agree with you ! cheers,Terop.s. now don't take this the wrong way, but I think that the comment:"It's a fantastic computer game. It's a great way for us to further our love of aviation. But don't believe for a second that it prepares you to handle this scenerio"is somewhat disrespecting of the flight simming hobby itself. Most of us serious simmers do it because of the strive for realism. We'd like to think that we could "probably do it" or at least "probably learn how to do it". How would it further our love of aviation if it had NOTHING to do with it ? In all fairness, $70 sim is what it is, but the price tag does not say it all, in my opinion. I don't have PPL but I've flown smaller props from the right seat _a lot_, no problem. I've also tried an MD11 level-D sim and thoroughly enjoyed doing the approaches and takeoffs _manually_. It wasn't difficult at all in "all systems OK" situation. Yeah, us flight simmers are TRULY a breed of our own, LOL!take care!

>How would you determine where you were? Search for the F9 key to open FSNAV>How would you go about establishing radio contact with >someone... which radui would you use... which frequency... Bring up the MS Chat box, then open SBHOST and click on ATC --> UNICOM and see if anyone in the area wanted to chat. Vatsim5 can usually be found online.>where are the push to talk switches... I use either the left control key or a button on my yoke.> how do you adjust volume... My Computer --> Control Panel --> Sound>How would you find out the weather at your chosen airport? Type AUTOATIS and see if any are in range - or bring up the SB FMS and use ACARS. If neither of those worked I would try checking it via SERVINFO.>Would you know how to operate the radar to avoid any weather? This could be avoided by finding somewhere with nice weather and then using FSMETEO's "lock to" feature.-----------I hope this answers your questions HP.Ian Elchitz CYWGp.s. - oh.. you mean real world isn't exactly like FS2002? In that case I would probably start praying.

Thanks, Wallace.I thought I'd almost had it figured it out (with the wealth of helpful advice coming in), but then I started to read Bill Bulfer's Big Boeing FMC User's guide (chapter 13) and that really threw the proverbial spanner in the works :-)Anyway, what I found out from the Boeing 767 Maintenance Manual is that there is an internal switch in each lightshield VOR panel which is controlled by the EFIS control panel EHSI mode selections. When you are in "ILS" mode ("Full" or "Expanded") on the EFIS control panel, the internal switch allows the ILS control panel on the pedestal to manually tune the DME's (both interrogators, I assume)... i.e. if that particular runway has an associated ILSDME. However, this doesn't change the VOR frequency displayed in the VOR panel on the lightshield (I think the frequency I thought I saw displayed on a lightshield VOR panel in a picture of a Qantas cockpit at airliners.net (yesterday) was actually 110.20MHz, rather than 110.70MHz.. i.e. a VOR frequency rather than an ILS frequency. Perhaps those pilots who have been to YMML recently... or not so recently... can confirm this?).The matter gets really complicated when you start looking at Scanning and Non-Scanning type DME Interrogators and how this affects autotuning and FMC position radio updating... and also when you start looking at "Remote" and "Procedure" tuning (There is a 767 FMC option which actually allows you to manually tune VOR and ILS stations using the CDU Progress page...i.e. it is not necessary to have a Nav Rad page as such). Aircraft DME Interrogators, these days, can tune up to 5 different stations simultaneously. There's an excellent, but really complex, explanation of this in the Big Boeing FMC Users Guide (Chapter 13).Anyway, to analyse what happens when and where, you would really have to look at a specific 767, figure out what kind of FMC's, DME's and control panels it had, what selections have been made on the EFIS, ILS and VOR control panels... and go from there. I'm not sure if PIC reflects a certain real life configuration (so I really wouldn't be game enough to offer a theory on how it should work... or what you should see on the displays ;-)). Also, you only have one CDU, one EFIS control panel and one FMC to play about with in PIC... which adds additional complexity to any theory of operation proposed. To be honest, I find it quite remarkable that the PIC team were able to program PIC so realistically given such complications and limitations.Thankfully, in real life, pilots and maintenance engineers simply follow specific/ set procedures in their everyday life... and, if all goes well, they don't have to look too deeply into this sort of stuff ;-)Cheers.Ian. P.S. Interestingly, I thought, according to the Boeing Maintenance Manual, the pedestal ILS control panel has 3 "ganged wafers" for tuning all three ILS receivers simultaneously (with the rotary knobs).... hopefully to the same frequency: To confirm it has tuned them, you look at the frequency displayed in the ILS control panel window (which represents the frequency selected for the Center ILS) and at the EHSI's (The Left and Right ILS receiver tuned frequency is displayed on the respective Captain's/ F/O's EHSI displays).

"Does it skip the frequency when it has identified an ILS frequency or does it skip the whole band? (Whatever that is, 108.XX-111.XX, but inbetween there are a lot of VOR frequencies too. )"As HPSOV says, Martin... it skips the "odd decimals" below 112.00 Mhz... and it is all done electronically: In fact, I had a look at my training notes today and found that the knobs are not directly connected to the digital displays. When you turn the knobs, this is converted to a digital electrical signal which is then sent to the VOR Receiver in the Electronic Equipment Bay (or "MEC" as it is sometimes known). The VOR receiver processes the tuning signal then sends it back to the control panel. The control panel then converts the digital signal from the VOR receiver to something which will change the digital displays. When you use the panel, it sort of feels like there is some sort of direct link from the knob to the displays, but this is not the case... There's actually 30 or more feet of electrical wiring involved... plus a few electrical relays.The display starts at 108.00, then..108.05108.20108.25108.40108.45108.60108.65...until it reaches 112.00, then all the frequencies are shown.112.05112.10112.15112.20112.25....etc.Actually, I recall thinking that the panel was broken when I first tried to use it (15? years ago). :-)Cheers.Ian.

>I (the regular me) doesn't even know which VHF radio to use >- does it matter? I thought you could use any VHF radio with >a frequency tuned, receiver selected and volume up, and mic >keyed. Is there anything more to it?What I meant here, Martin, is that you would have to select the appropriate MIC button on your audio selector panel... i.e. If you pushed the L VHF button, you would have to make sure that you tuned the Left VHF control panel (located on the left hand side of the pedestal) to the correct frequency. Forget about using the C VHF MIC button on your audio selector panel... You might blow up the ACARS (grin).If you are using a microphone, but not a headset, you may not think that your microphone is working properly. The cockpit speaker may mute (go silent or at least very quiet) when you are talking (this is to prevent feedback squeal). That is, assuming you have set your speaker volume at all! Because of muting, I find it too difficult using a hand microphone as I don't know how loudly to speak into the microphone: If I speak too loudly, ATC may only hear distortion. If I speak too softly, they may not hear me at all. I much prefer to use a boomset (combined mic/headset) so I can hear my own voice.Using HF systems is a little more complicated than VHF systems. Many 767's don't have digital tuners and you may be surprised by the 1000Hz tone which sounds in your headphones/speakers when you push the microphone button (this is a tuning tone). The length of the tuning cycle is dependent on the last frequency selected and the frequency band. It may last up to 10 seconds or longer on some aircraft (guaranteed to induce panic). Now the question of "Should I use USB, LSB... or AM ?"(grin). >(but audio panels come in many different ways - something I >learned during my manual digging last night :-)).Indeed they do. Some volume controls have twistable pushbuttons, others have mini thrust levers :-) (Noting here that, at this point, we seem to be limiting ourselves to 767's.... Other aircraft type may have other weird and wonderful button combinations). >>Regarding frequencies and charts, speaking as myself again, >the frequencies are clearly listed on the charts I have.How about HF frequencies tho' (for long distance comms)?>There is also of course the 121.5 emergency frequency and >123.45 air-to-air frequency (for remote areas). But I still >believe that, unless it's gone a long time since the pilots >passed out, the right frequency would be tuned.Ah, but now that the pilots are locking themselves away in the cockpit (post 911) and not allowing any visitors. There may be quite some time between the purser making a routine call/visit to the flight deck... and... after settling his nerves... thinking about panicking the passengers by making that fateful "are there any pilots on board?" call :-) >>Does F/As know how to use the radios? Not that I'm aware of. If cabin satphones are fitted, they would of course know how to use those... but are the phone cords long enough to stretch into the cockpit (grin).... and what's their credit card spending limit (U$10 per minute fee for satphone use ;-)). >Also, many 767s have >satellite phones for use by the pax, but to be honest I >don't know how these work. :-)I don't know for sure how many 767's have these (None of our 767's do... unless they've slipped a modification by me).>Lastly, as an "average" but rational person, if I couldn't >find another solution, I would look in the AOM. It's easy to >figure out how to work the radios. ;-)LOL... I hope you have better luck finding the AOMs than I have when it comes to finding MEL/DDG manuals on some airlines :-) All the colours/shapes and sizes of the rainbow... and, like lightning, almost never in the same spot twice!All I can say is... never give up trying/looking/button pushing :)Cheers.Ian.

Ian , thats the problem with working here , there are so many different customer variations in radio's and nav equipment with all the different airlines there are never two alike. The 737NG's are the same , every customer has their own idea of what type radios's and nav display variables to have installed, including what type of display software. Southwest for instanace has round style analog gauges displayed on their lcd flat panels instead of the traditional ND's used by most carriers, and they also inop the autothrottle. The only 757 or 767's here belong to the military (757 f22 testbed) and the (767 laser testbed), No chance of getting on those without getting shot. If we do happen to get 757 or 767 here I'll check it out .

Thanks HPSOV and Ian for explaining. I learnt something new: that the "odd decimals", as you put it, between 108 to 112 MHz are used as ILS frequencies. I never really thought about it before. :-)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

Maybe a game to you ,buts its become an invaluable instrument training aid for my instrument flying. Its all what you make of it.Some people can remain calm in the most stressfull situations some crack under pressure, Everyone has their own limits, 130 mph might make you shake in your shoes but to me its 3rd gear at 12,800 rpm on my way to 6th and another ungodly top speed run.

>It's really cute that some people think a $70 simulator is >an adequate training for an emergency landing, but as >mentioned in the other forum, some people completely gnore >the fear factor.The point of the discussion, as I see it, is whether it would be possible to get an aircraft down safely if you could stay calm and not let the fear take control.Most of us would probably be too scared to be able to do it, but that's a different topic altogether.(I think it's not that uncommon in emergencies that fear gets suppressed until it's "safe" for it to come out. :-) But as I said that's a different topic.)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

>What I meant here, Martin, is that you would have to select >the appropriate MIC button on your audio selector panel...OK. That's rather easy - just match the MIC button with the radio that you are using. Or am I missing something?>I much prefer to use a boomset (combined mic/headset)And there would be headsets in the cockpit of course.BTW, this describes the use of the headset:"Used to monitor audio from the respective audio control panel." ;-)Regarding HF, I must admit that I probably would be lost when trying to use it. But that wouldn't make the plane crash, would it? It would likely and hopefully mean we could continue a few hundred miles until within range of any VHF stations. And there's still 121.5 and most likely at least some other airliners in range.>(Noting here that, at this point, we seem to be limiting ourselves >to 767's.... Other aircraft type may have other weird and wonderful >button combinations).But aren't they usually of a fairly similar design? I mean, most buttons are labeled after all (and we still have the AOM somewhere ;-)).>How about HF frequencies tho' (for long distance >comms)?HF frequencies are also listed.I'm not sure how the pilots do it, but I suspect that they would most likely have the frequencies in use written down somewhere for reference, and almost surely they would have the charts laid out in the cockpit.>Ah, but now that the pilots are locking themselves away in >the cockpit (post 911) and not allowing any visitors. There >may be quite some time between the purser making a routine >call/visit to the flight deck...I think we're going a little off-topic now, since we can not possibly speculate in how all the passengers and F/As on board would react, if people's nerves would stand the test, if it would be possible to get inside the cockpit, etc.But in this situation the Crew Alertness Monitor would be useful I think (for the first time in history :-)).>LOL... I hope you have better luck finding the AOMs than I >have when it comes to finding MEL/DDG manuals on some >airlines :-)Easy... just look in the manual... oh wait. Yes, just look in the manual where it says "BOOK STOWAGE" - that's where it will be. ;-)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

It's not the knowledge that would be an issue more than overcoming the fear and adrenaline to logicially think your way through the situation.FS and products like PIC 767 give us a great foundation of aviation knowledge. I have no doubt I was far and away the best pilot in my ground school and training class solely because of FS. (and that was FS4 back in 89).I just moved to Dallas. My neighbor is an F/O with AA. He's getting hooked on PIC and FS2002. I think he's really amazed at the amount of realism included in flight sim programs. I'm sure he's impressed with the amount of knowledge simmers have about aircraft and aircraft systems. I have no doubt that most of us would impress any check piot on a full motion sim.But all of that being said, it is a COMPLETELY different expereince to be the sole pilot on a real airliner filled with screaming passengers with the very real possibility of death. A PC computer simulation, no matter how good, is going to be very different than the real thing. Trying to handle those differences in the context of an in flight emergency, with the real chance of death involved is a lot to ask. If you could ignore all of those things - one may have the base knowledge to do OK in the situation. But ignorning all of the human elements of an emergency takes away the whole point of the scenerio.I think there's some truth in the statement that we all respond to fear and emergencies differently. In my limited real world flying experiences (PPL with less than 100 hours), I did have one true in flight emergency. In my solo first flight that I got to leave the pattern, my alternator had an electrical short on climbout causing smoke to fill the cockpit. In the big picture not a huge emergency, but still a shock to the system.It remember being surprisingly calm, radioing the tower, reentering the tower and making an emergency landing. I still think that comfort level came from the fact that part of each lesson I'd taken focused on emergencies.I still wouldn't want any part of an airliner in a real world scenerio unless it was the last, and I mean absolute last resort. And even then, I'd be praying my butt off that things worked out.Regards,EdQualified Emergency Airline Pilot (via FS2002)Winston Cup backup driver (via Nascar 4)PGA Tour Qualifier (via Links 2002)Hardened criminal (via Grand Theft Auto 3)Warlock in training (via Warcraft III):)

Ed,Please read the following quote from your mail:>It remember being surprisingly calm, radioing the tower, >reentering the tower and making an emergency landing. >The smoke in the cockpit must have done some harm to your brains! BTW: a few years ago the American magazine Flying had a sort of simular story of smoke in the cockpit. On top of the smoke the unhappy pilot got melting plastic on his legs. He didn't land in the tower though.Kind regards,Stephan Haas