Yeah, you are right Tim. What we got was a diatribe and then a public tongue lashing, and there were numerous emails sent back and forth between staff and Steve in the process. Never once did we get what I (or any of the other editorial folks) would have considered a formal rebuttal from you or Steve as to Carenado's actions. As I have said, from all the dialog we were in receipt of, it was simply a matter of AVSIM rolling over, not accepting Carenado's apology and then publicly scouraging them, and then you and Steve would have been satisfied. THE ISSUE HERE TIM IS THAT YOU GUYS ARE STILL ###### THAT WE ACCEPTED THEIR APOLOGY AT ALL. That was, has not, will apparently never be, good enough for you. Sorry, life moves on and you guys look like a bunch of snot nosed kids in the process - irrespective of the quality of your work. You want to take your toys and play somewhere else? That's fine by me and the staff (and endlessly funny btw). The cost of having anything to do with you guys is too high. God forbid we actually hosted any of your files; if we said or did something to miff you we would be under constant threat of having them removed. Better not to have them here at all.As for "Until then, the hard feelings continue, and I don't believe it is any of our doing." Of course not. Far be it from FSD to be wrong about anything (GET THE MESSAGE????). AVSIM is a convenient target for your wrath. You haven't done anything wrong (except to continue to beat this stupid crap to death). But that's cool. You've pretty much exposed yourselves in this one. I think you guys need to grow up.

"Since I am new to this old conflict, what exactly does FSD want from AVSIM?"They wanted us to not forgive Carenado, bury them in a sea of boycott BS, not ever publish any news about any of Carenado's products, or god forbid, review any of their products. The fact that we published their apology, did further news announcements about them, and even reviewed a product or two of Carenado's drove FSD into epileptic fits, which continue to this day. In short, there isn't anything we could now do to satisfy Mr. Small short of folding our tent and taking our toys home like they do, apparenly. That ain't going to happen, and they'll sooner or later learn to live with it, or not.But you hit it on the head. It certainly is an "old conflict", but one that Small hasn't quite learned to turn loose of yet.

Dean,I'll put it this way,If it wasn't for Avsim, I'd probably read forums a whole lot less!If it wasn't for Steve Small's air.files, I'd probably sim a whole lot less!Doesn't help much----- does it! :)L.Adamson

All we're missing here in this discussion is an olive branch and a piece of common ground...

That common ground disappeared quite some time ago with Steve's antics and the aid and abetting he got from a small number of junkyard dogs. As for an olive branch, well, I won't post my response to that.

>If it wasn't for Avsim, I'd probably read forums a whole lot >less! DITTO.>If it wasn't for Steve Small's air.files, I'd probably sim a >whole lot less! >>Doesn't help much----- does it! :) THERE'S ALWAYS FLY! ;)

Hi, I agree that to forgive and move forward are necessary. But after reading the apology, I noticed something very questionable in the third paragraph:" A review of the possible causes behind this mistake indicates that extraneous material was INVOLUNTARILY filtered into our production line of one model that went out for sale, in which it was included the file of Mr. Small, to whom we have sent a personal letter apologizing for the unfortunate incident." I would be very suspicious as to how Steve Small's air file just likely filtered itself into the one model that was for sale.Maybe the Carenado employees involved denied it. But is that as thorough of an investigation they did? I just find it hard to believe that something like this could be "INVOLUNTARY."

>"THERE'S ALWAYS FLY!"That was one cold shot. :-lol

Tom, I bet you regret asking that question. :-lol

And all the poor guy was looking for was someone to send him an .air file. Do ya think his fingers are twitching after all this? :-lol

I hope not. :-lolWe could send him a whole bunch of other great *.air files and point him in the right direction in regards to the library. :)

>They wanted us to not forgive Carenado, bury them in a sea >of boycott BS, not ever publish any news about any of >Carenado's products, or god forbid, review any of their >products. The fact that we published their apology, did >further news announcements about them, and even reviewed a >product or two of Carenado's drove FSD into epileptic fits, >which continue to this day. In short, there isn't anything >we could now do to satisfy Mr. Small short of folding our >tent and taking our toys home like they do, apparenly. That >ain't going to happen, and they'll sooner or later learn to >live with it, or not. That's a load of BS and you know it Tom. If you want to publish reviews of their products that is completely up to you. It is about you arrogantly accepting the "apology" on behalf of other people, that being ourselves and the other developers who they stole from, and then refusing to publish our reply, or that of the other aggrieved parties.Is that fair play Tom? Or do you just like to be fair when it suits you? [link:www.fsheartland.net]http://www.fsd-international.com/team/Heartland_sig.gif

Timmy, I forgot to add earlier.. There are about 82 (okay, three or four :-lol ) additional points in my message that you failed to come close to addressing. Did I miss something?

Helllooooo.. Timmy me boy.. AVSIM DID NOT ACCEPT ANYONE'S apology. Go read the freaking page again. AT THE END OF IT, WE SAID IT IS THE SIMMER'S CHOICE to accept it or not.

And Tom says I "bait"! :)L.Adamson