Clearance Questions

[Guest HepburnUGA]

Ok, just a quick question regarding altitude clearances. If the controller says, "descend at pilot's discretion..expect to cross xxx at FL100," then they technically haven't given you a cleared to altitude right? This arose the other night when I was given an 'ok' to descend, an expect to cross at, but no altitude in which I am cleared down too? -Obviously this is not a real life occurence because ATC would clear you down to an altitude in which you would be handed off to the next center and then to approach. Since one person often runs all positions on Vatsim this applies more often.ThanksJeff

[Guest Martin]

As far as I understand that phrase does imply that you are cleared to descend FL100, and you can start the descent whenever you like as long as you cross xxx at FL100.Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

[Guest]

Jeff- this is a real life occurance - and at points you cross ARTCC boundries you would be handed off -to the appropriate personbut online we dont have those staffing levels to have 6 CTRs and 4 approach people usually ( except MAJOR events )Richard GreenVATUSA4Events and VA Director

[Guest HepburnUGA]

Thanks for the reply Richard. I realize that there are not enough people to staff all positions. My question is, does the phrase "expect to cross xxx" imply that we are cleared to that altitude unless otherwise instructed? ThanksJeff

[Guest]

Actually EXPECT shouldn't be in there the CORRECT phrasing would be something like - "AAL215, Join the XXX ARRIVAL descend pilot's discretion to cross XXX as published ( or to cross xxx at xxx - if needed you at a different alititude for whatever reason )Richard GreenVATUSA4Events and VA Director

[Guest HepburnUGA]

Great! That clears up a lot... I thought that you were always told by ATC "cleared to" do whatever and that anything else (essentially)was just for planning purposes. Thanks for the reply!Jeff

[Guest Stamatis]

Join the XXX ARRIVALEven the above phrase is not necessary.You can receive a clearance to descend at pilot's discretion and cross ABC at so-and-so FL or altitude, even if not on a STAR. You can very well be still on an airway or under radar vectors.Example:"Cleared Direct ABC VOR, cross ABC at FL100, descend at pilot's discretion"Stamatis

[Guest rcritz]

And, the "descend at pilot's discretion" is also unnecessary, redundant and good for getting your head smacked in an ATC facility, at least in the US. The phrase "CROSS AT " is, by definition, a pilot's discretion clearance.The place where one uses the words "pilot's discretion" is in a clearance to a specific altitude without a crossing restriction, e.g. "PILOT'S DISCRETION, DESCEND AND MAINTAIN 8000".Edited to regionalize the references, just to be safe.

[Guest]

Ya know all these years - and I have been doing bad things...But to be honest several times I got pilots flying the wrong STARwhile redundant its not a terrible thing - The majority of it is poor piloting.... as you all know - some pilots would respond 5 miles from the fix there were supposed to be at 8k - and are still at FL350 - "ummm CTR when should I be going down??? "NEVER assume a pilot's skill - let him DEMONSTRATE it in a positive and proficent manner - and that manner will be a guide by which others will be measured... Richard GreenVATUSA4Events and VA Director

[Guest Stamatis]

The phrase "CROSS AT " is, by definition, a pilot's discretion clearance.Not where I come from, at least as far as my umderstanding goes. You are not supposed to leave your assigned altitude unless you are expressly cleared to do so.The phrase "CROSS AT " should be linked to a descent clearance, discretionary or immediate.Hey, if we were all the same life would be boring :-)Stamatis

[Guest]

Stam - thats why he ( CZ ) said edited for/as a US correct version...Just like you won't catch a US controller saying IDENTIFIED.... well unless hes a LIMEY who snuck through INS Richard GreenVATUSA4Events and VA Director

[Guest ielchitz]

Too bad we all couldn't reach across the Ocean and give each other a great big hug and agree to standardize all of this stuff..LMAO..I used to say that "pilots discretion" stuff all the time as well. It's flat out wrong. For some reason this was just discussed on our ARTCC forum.For FAA buffs-------------FAA 7110.65Chap 4-5-7EXAMPLE-"United Four Seventeen, cross Lakeview V-O-R at and maintain six thousand." NOTE-The pilot is authorized to conduct descent "at pilot's discretion," but must comply with the clearance provision to cross Lakeview VOR at 6,000 feet. Another that is commonly misunderstood seems to be the issuing of multiple clearances such as.SoCal: ACA301 Cross Santa Monica at 7000.ACA301: Santa Monica at 7, ACA301.SoCal: Departing Santa Monica fly heading 065, descend and maintain 2 thousand 5 hundred, vectors for he ILS 24 right approach.Some pilots descend to 2500 and turn to 065 immediatelySome pilots descend to 2500 and turn to 065 after SMOMost pilots (the good ones) Cross Santa Monica at 7000 and THEN turn to 065 and head for 2500.I've also issued this one to some of the (special) pilots when I'm working center all alone (and I'm in a wierd mood) as something like this heh...ACA301: Center Air Canada 301 checking in 330 over AvenalCTR: ACA301 good evening Los Angeles Center, Cross Symon at 12,000, SADDE at or above 10,000, Bayst at 10,000, Santa Monica at 7000, departing Santa Monica fly heading 065 descned and maintain 2 thousand Five Hundred, vectors for the ILS runway 24 right approach, Los Angeles Altimeter 2982.At this point I dont have to talk to him again for 130nm when he's ready for a turn to final near SAPPI mu hahaha.(I need to get that Zyban dosage reduced)Ian ElchitzZLA ARTCC

[Guest ilh]

Why don't you just clear him for landing, crossing 24L, and taxiing to the gate while you're at it? :-)Lee Hetherington (KBOS)UAL337

[Guest Stamatis]

Ian,"I used to say that "pilots discretion" stuff all the time as well. It's flat out wrong.EXAMPLE-"United Four Seventeen, cross Lakeview V-O-R at and maintain six thousand." NOTE-The pilot is authorized to conduct descent "at pilot's discretion," but must comply with the clearance provision to cross Lakeview VOR at 6,000 feet."I still have a question. Reading the above clearance it is not clear to me whether the controller wants me to start the descent immediately upon receiving the clearance, or whether I (the pilot) may start the descent at my discretion, as long as I make sure I cross Lakeview at 6000.How do you make that differentiation between the two different scenarios, if you do not use the "at pilot's discretion" phrase?Stamatis

[Guest ilh]

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0405.html#4-5-7 and http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html#4-4-9 have a number of examples with and without pilot's discretion.Thanks for the initial pointer, Ian.Lee Hetherington (KBOS)