Clearance Questions

[B777ER 2,484]

Ian,I have flown in LAX CTR airspace for the last few weeks and love it when your controlling in the CTR position. I always count on you for a laugh when some pilot out there does something screwy.Known on VATSIM as DAL483 or JBU7

[Tabs 2,790]

Stamatis,It's my understanding that when you tell a pilot to cross X at Y, that's a clearance for him to descend at a rate that meets the constraints you set forth. I've never heard a controller on VATSIM or in real life give a crossing restriction but then control the descent himself, it's always up to the pilot to determine what he needs to do to make his aircraft meet the restriction.RyanZAB ARTCC

[Guest Stamatis]

Ryan,You misunderstood my question. I do not expect the controller to "control my descent", as you write.Please follow me carefully: There are two different cases in such a descent scenario.Case no 1: The controller simply wants you to cross ABC at Y feet and does not care as to when you start your descent. Up to you.Case no 2: The controller wants you to cross ABC at Y feet but also wants you to start your descent immediately upon receiving the clearance because he has other traffic behind you and higher up, that needs to start its descent (or for whatever other reason)How do I interpret the clearance as stated in the example quoted further up in this thread?How would that clearance be phrased in order to mean the other case?I hope I am clear enough now :-)Stamatis

[Vulcan 14]

ROFLMAO

[Guest Martin]

I'm rusty on this - to be technical I have never even learned it properly. :-) But in case no 2, shouldn't the controller just add "please expedite" to the instruction?Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

[Guest ielchitz]

Hi Stamatis!I'll see if I can give you the answer you are looking for in terms of FAA procedures.>Case no 1: The controller simply wants you to cross ABC at Y >feet and does not care as to when you start your >descent. Up to you. Phraseology: "STAM1, Cross SYMON at and maintain 12,000"Intent: I could care less when you start down - as long as you cross SYMON at 12.>Case no 2: The controller wants you to cross ABC at Y feet >but also wants you to start your descent >immediately upon receiving the clearance because he >has other traffic behind you and higher up, that needs to >start its descent (or for whatever other reason) This one is a little trickier and I think it really depends on the situation. If you were way up at FL350 say and I needed you to start down NOW I might give you a HARD altitutde followed by pilot's discretion.Phraseology: "Stam1, Descend now to FL240, Cross SYMON at and maintain 12,000"Intent: You must descend to FL240 now - and upon reaching FL240 you can descend at pilot's discretion to cross SYMON at 12,000.Now if there was no intermediate altitude to give - and for some reason stepping you down was not going to work.. then perhaps just a simple - "Stam1, descend and maintain 12,000" would do the trick. I personally would not trust that way out as I can not guarantee that you will cross the SYMON waypoint at 12,000 NOR can I guarantee that you won't plummet out of the sky and be at 12,000 60nm before you get to SYMON.Does that answer the question?If not - let's go around again and see if we can get a better example.Ian ElchitzZLA ARTCC

[Guest Stamatis]

Hi Martin,"But in case no 2, shouldn't the controller just add "please expedite" to the instruction?""Expedite" is used when the controller wants you to fly with a higher descent rate than the one currently used, so I do not think it is the correct phraseology for what I'm asking.Thanks for replying,Stamatis

[Guest Stamatis]

Hi Ian,Thank you very much for your reply.After getting some additional input from other sources, it seems that what would distinguish the two cases as I have stated them, is the presence or absence of the command "descend" in the phraseology:"Phraseology: "STAM1, Cross SYMON at and maintain 12,000"Intent: I could care less when you start down - as long as you cross SYMON at 12."Fully agreed. As the clearance does not contain the instruction "descend", it is understood that the pilot can start his descent whenever he/she feels appropriate, as long as he crosses SYMON at 12000'."Phraseology: "Stam1, Descend now to FL240, Cross SYMON at and maintain 12,000"Intent: You must descend to FL240 now - and upon reaching FL240 you can descend at pilot's discretion to cross SYMON at 12,000."OK, this is how I was told this clearance should be phrased:"Stam1, Descend to 12,000', cross SYMON at and maintain 12,000"It is the inclusion of the command "Descend to 12,000" that makes the difference. How (with what rate) one descends to 12000' is up to the pilot, he/she will most probably use a rate that will have him/her at 12,000' a few miles before SYMON, but that is up to him. All he has to do is:a) start his descent immediately upon receiving this clearance:( Not descend any lower than 12,000'c) Make sure that when he crosses SYMON he/she is at 12,000'The above makes sense to me.Do you agree?RegardsStamatis

[Guest ielchitz]

"Stam1, Descend to 12,000', cross SYMON at and >maintain 12,000"[/b][/i] >>The above makes sense to me. >Do you agree? >>Regards >Stamatis Yes.I find that most often I am just giving the "Cross XXX at YYY" since it I try and get all of that out on initial contact (in fact I find quite often that by giving this info asap - I end up with 10 aircraft and absolute radio silence since we've got nothing to day - which allows me take on another 10 aircraft). Usually the only time I will ask a pilot to start their descent in this sort of situation is because they are getting too close to the crossing restruction or they are tightly spaced withsomeone else, which is easily solved by speed restrictions.Ian.

[Guest Martin]

I see. Am I correct in that "expedite" can be used not only for climb/descent rates, but for headings too? And maybe even speeds?Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

[Guest Stamatis]

Martin,The only instances I am aware of where "expedite" has been used is for climbs/descents.Stamatis

[Tabs 2,790]

What would be wrong with: "STAM1, descend now to cross SYMON at 12,000"That sounds a lot simpler and easier to understand than saying descend twice as above...Ryan

[Guest ielchitz]

Ya Ryan - that sounds legal and easy enough to me .

[Guest Stamatis]

Ryan,Actually it does not say "descend" twice. :-)But I see nothing wrong with your phraseology either.Stamatis

[Guest]

Hi guys,One of the ways we do it in Canada:Without a speed restriction."ACA001, Cleared 11000' cross ROKTO level, Toronto Alt 3003."With a speed restriction:"ACA001, Cleared 7000' cross YOUTH level 210 knots, Toronto Alt 3003."Best Regards,