VATSIM and IVAO

[MarkW 1,490]

I think we would all agree that in most enterprises competition is a good thing. Having said that I think online flying is perhaps one area where competition adds little value. This is such a small and specialized market where everyone agrees that more aircraft and more ATC is a good thing and yet we have VATSIM and IVAO sharing a small group of users and offering essentially the same service.Does anyone know the history here and if efforts are underway to join the two groups. Perhaps VATSIM can control NA, SA, Africa and Asia while IVAO controls Europe.Mark.

[ErnieAlston 33]

>Does anyone know the history here and if efforts are underway to >join the two groups. >Perhaps VATSIM can control NA, SA, Africa and >Asia while IVAO controls Europe.What you suggest probably won't happen anytime soon. Your right though Europe is probably the key merging area, as that's IVAO's mainstay.Its doubtfull VATSIM Europe would ever give control of its division to IVAO's Europe group.I think the only possible merger is bringing the smaller IVAO into the larger VATSIM.Not likely anytime soon.Regards.Ernie.

[Guest]

Thatd be the end of my use of VATSIM thats for sure. IVAO is no where near the quality of VATSIM, they never will be. VATSIM Europe is able to provide more controllers, and more pilots than IVAO can do for the region, why even suggest such a merger?

[shermank 166]

I for one am really tired of the artificial rivalries which creep up in this hobby. We are all in it for the fun of simming and the friendships we develop in the virtual online community. As for why a merger would be good for the hobby, for one thing it would create a larger body of simmers under one umbrella. Whenever I check ivao, there is hardly anyone on line...but, when I check vatsim, things can be quite busy with a large base of controllers. I say, let's all get together and have a better simming experience with more controllers and more flyers.Sherm

[Guest]

Its not that hard . . . if they want to use VATSIM, sign up for it. But I dont see a merger working, sorry.

[MarkW 1,490]

If the only thing preventing a merger is "quality" then that seems like an easy thing to fix. Between VATSIM and IVAO there are 60,000 registered users, I would guess that 10,000 are overlaps so that leaves 50,000. During the peak use time (evenings and weekends) we have only 300 to 400 pilots and 100 ATC split between the two networks (<1% of users), why not join forces to increase the number of active users, improve the overall quality and pool resources for improvements (like an improved voice program).Mark.

[Guest]

i agree mark but the fact is people are stubborn

[Guest flightpro08]

I agree with Josh. If IVAO merges with VATSIM, I'm out. That's like saying Wal-Mart and Nordstrom should merge (no offense to either one of those companies.) I just don't see it working out well.Ryan-Flightpro08 :-cool VATSIM Pilot/ControllerZLA ARTCC Senior Controller (C-3)SAN TRACON Lead [link:www.taxiwaysigns.com|Taxiwaysigns.com] Scenery Designer-----------------------------My "Home Made" System Specs:Intel Pentium 4 2.2GHz ProcessorTurbo Gamer ATX Mid-Tower with 420W Power SupplyEPoX 4G4A Motherboard with Intel 845G ChipsetVisiontek XTASY GeForce4 128MB Ti4600 (Det 30.30 Drivers)512MB PC2100 DDR RAM40GB Matrox 7200RPM Hard DriveWindows XP Home Edition SP1*No CPU or GPU Overclocking*3dMark2001SE Score: 11298-----------------------------Click [link:ftp.avsim.com/library/esearch.php?DLID=&Name=&FileName=&Author=Ryan+Fretwell&CatID=Root]Here to Download my New American Eagle POSKY CRJ-200!

[Guest]

Nice Analogy

[Guest]

>Thatd be the end of my use of VATSIM thats for sure. IVAO >is no where near the quality of VATSIM, they never will be. >VATSIM Europe is able to provide more controllers, and more >pilots than IVAO can do for the region, why even suggest >such a merger? Hmm, quality, where? Is it a quality when 50% of users fly with B744 on route EGLL-RJAA, the plan says "DIRECT GPS". Yep yep, the realism. But where? Please, first make sure that we are realistic now in VATSIM, then invite some more users and make them realistic too..My route from GCTS to EFHK last sunday: BIMBO UZ9 ORSOS UN866 AGADO/N0465F360 UN866 KORUL UL722 BHD UA25 NITON UY98 BARTN/N0461F370 UL975 DANDI UN866 AAL UN607 BAK UN873 LAKUT DCT

[Guest]

Thanks for the laugh, but you really have no clue what your talking about.

[Guest]

Perhaps you need to learn the history of IVAO, and why it was created in the first place.

[Guest]

>Thanks for the laugh, but you really have no clue what your >talking about. Hmm, do I have a clue? Yes, I think so. Let's see if you got me right. I mean that there is a huge amount of "gamers" in VATSIM. I use the word "gamers" because VATSIM is developed for simulating air traffic and controlling of it. There are some people who just want to fly with their GPS gauge and B744 direct flights from KORD to EHAM, for example. And there are people who don't know the things. I've seen a few guys who couldn't speak english, too. Please tell me, is this realistic?The problem is the biggest at large busy airports like Heathrow and Schiphol, but I have seen the problem on my own eyes in Helsinki as controller. The situation is: Only one controller is online at large airport, let's say he/she works as approach controller. A few minutes it's very quiet. Suddenly, the controller has 5-10 arrivals on vectors and 5 departures. Arrivals do it fine but there is one departing guy for flight EFHK-UHZA, route is "DIRECT GPS". Then the controller thinks where the hell is UHZA. He checks Whazzup, Whazzup doesn't recognize the code. He asks the pilot, pilot doesn't understand due his not-so-good english. What next? "Oops, others are waiting there." And more pilots to come. The controller cannot give just the direct clearance and he cannot give the vectors because he doesn't know where the pilot is going to. The only way is to separate by altitude. And believe me, I see very often a common mistake, pilot passes the clearance altitude. On heavy traffic, this means crash.Now I've told why VATSIM is not so realistic. Do I know what I'm talking about? No direct plans, no unrealistic aircraft types (in real life you'll try Cessna first, not B747), good english and phraseology. Then it will be more realistic.If you have knowledge, give it to the others too.To convince you, here's my VATSIM stats. I really have experience in this case.Pilot 25/08/2001 685:22:15 Observer 13/06/2002 0:00:06 Student 21/09/2001 216:15:06 Senior Student 17/01/2002 321:39:42 Controller 01/10/2002 36:49:35 P.S. In Finland we have a very high quality ATC training, I've even tried a real ATC simulator in Finnish Civil Aviation Administration ATC training center, Avia College.P.P.S. I think my english is not so good as well, but I think you can manage it. :)EDIT: I noticed the negative view on my post when I read it, so it's time to fix it a little. I didn't say the new ones are not welcome. I also didn't say that VATSIM is not realistic. VATSIM is realistic at some parts of it all. But it would not be any more realistic after a year if we do not do something for it. I would be glad to teach the new ones and others who are not so good on navigation and phraseology. And I've done this already in Finland for a few new pilots who had asked for my help. I think that VATSIM is not the right place for people who just want to get up to the skies without any realistic feeling. But I hope that the most of VATSIM users want realistic feel. Together we can make VATSIM a better place to fly. And to control, of course. ;) And please, visit at me in Finland sometimes, you're more than welcome. :)Just thinking if we got Eurocat 2000 radar systems simulation available for controllers as Pro Controller now (actually, what system is simulated in PC?). More realistic, you know..

[Guest]

Once again, Id like to refer you to Richard Critz, VP of Pilot Training for VATSIM. There will never be anything us controllers can do to help pilots learn, UNLESS they already have a background of the air traffic system. And I will agree with you, many do not. But I would not be so naive to say 50% are newbies, and want to fly RJAA - EGCC in a B744, w/ dir. GPS in as there flight plan. There are many pilots, who are real, student, or hobbiest pilots who fly on VATSIM as realistic as the simulation allows. Im one of them, and I know there are many more here that may decide to chime in on there defense. Ive been w/ VATSIM (aka SATCO) for well over 2-3yrs. I recall the days of not having an idea of what the system was like. Lucky me I have a father who is a real world pilot (US). So I learned promptly, and now Im going into the real world air traffic management career field. You are correct, the true users of VATSIM do act realisticly, and its much more than 50%. So that just dash's out your assumption of 50% want to fly a B744 gps dir from RJAA-EGCC. As for the ProController system, it isnt realistic for one, and as soon as ASRC is released (oh BTW - It will have a Eurocat 200 system implemented [v.2]) the aspect of realism will increase 100 fold for us controllers. If you feel like looking up my information, here is my CID 811983Enjoy what you see. . .Regards

[Guest]

>Once again, Id like to refer you to Richard Critz, VP of >Pilot Training for VATSIM. There will never be anything us >controllers can do to help pilots learn, UNLESS they already >have a background of the air traffic system. And I will >agree with you, many do not. But I would not be so naive to >say 50% are newbies, and want to fly RJAA - EGCC in a B744, >w/ dir. GPS in as there flight plan. You're right, there are maybe 5% or even less. But from my point of view, there must be more pilot training action. In Finland, we've started VFR training flights for new pilots, helped by real PPL and CPL pilot and real air traffic controller. I think that soon we'll start IFR training. We have also Virtual Finnair. It's VA where the pilots have to learn things first as in real life too. I don't know if there is action anywhere else, please tell me. :)>As for the ProController system, it isnt realistic for one, >and as soon as ASRC is released (oh BTW - It will have a >Eurocat 200 system implemented [v.2]) the aspect of realism >will increase 100 fold for us controllers. Great! Finally some realism for controllers too. :)Regards