I GIVE UP ON VATSIM!!!!

[Guest Agrajag]

That helps somewhat but it still doesn't explain why airways aren't supported. Must be some technical complexity. My concern is that lat night the VATSIM controller for ATL wanted me to submit the correct flightplan showing J89 and I couldn't do it.

[Guest BK1]

Ahhh....I see where you're coming from now.If you submit your flightplan via Squawkbox, you can type whatever you like into the flight plan field. The only flightplan ATC sees is the one you've entered in this field. So, FSNav will direct you via ALTANLA4.SOONE departure, then waypoints SOONE, ICBOD, OTK, and OTK.LEESE9 arrival. However, all you need enter in the squawkbox flightplan field is "SOONE J89 OTK". Depending where you are in the world, it is sometimes correct to put your planned SID/STAR in as well, eg "ALTANTA4.SOONE SOONE J89 OTK OTK.LEESE9". The important point is that with a flightplan submitted via Squawkbox, ATC only sees what you type in the box. Therefore, if your FSNav flightplan takes you along the waypoints of J89, just substitute them with J89 in SB's flightplan box. FSNav will take you along the waypoints, ATC will see you following J89 on their screen.Bruce.

[Guest Agrajag]

Thanks Bruce,Any idea on what happened with me in Bristol, England today (EGGD to EGCC)? First, I had a really hard time hearing the controller. Both the accent and poor output made it VERY difficult. Just commenting on that part so no need to reply to this comment.Second, he kept asking that I add BCN to the flightplan. Well, as far as I could see, BCN is a VOR and was there in my plan. He asked that I set it so that I routed direct there out of Bristol. FS Nav had, using it's auto-route option, put another step in there (Tangent or something like that) so I figured, okay, just remove that step so I did and resubmitted. ATC then said they didn't get my changed flightplan so I sent it again. Again they said they didn't get it but would just make the change on their end as long as I did on my end. I said I had so he released me.I get airborne and he starts continually saying "Please follow route for Bravo Charlie November." About 5 times he tried to get me onto this BCN while on my screen I'm clearly flying direct to BCN. Finally he just got frustrated and handed me off. I now suspect he DID get my flightplans with the change but it wasn't the change he was expecting.On the other side of the flight I just have a basic question. I'm used to MS' ATC vectoring me into the proper runway regardless of VFR or IFR (I only fly the latter in FS9). Coming into Manchester on this route left me 180 degrees in the wrong direction for runway 24R and it became clear to me that even though I was in contact with EGCC TWR that they weren't doing anything to redirect me. I then just veered off the course to go to the right of the runways, ran parallel and then past a bit before starting a left turn into the ILS localizer. Once I made that move and offered that I'd acquired the localizer only then did clear instruction come back that I was #2 and to come on in. The key question is that I have NO idea what the steps are to properly arrive there. My flightplan was submitted with just the destination airport name. I can't possibly know which runway I'll be given before I leave so I leave it that way and then adjust when I get there. Is that even right? Lastly, I've also noticed with the two FS NAV-created flights that it put me at 11,000 for cruising and both controllers wanted me at a different altitude. Is there some way to know what the right altitude is? I also cannot figure out in FS NAV how to get it to change my climb rate. Default autopilot sets vertical climb to "2" whereas FS NAV puts it at .5 so I climb so slowly that I miss its own indicators for when I will end my climb!

[Guest BK1]

Strangely enough, I'm flying out of Bristol as I write!When you changed your flight plan in FSNav to route directly to Brecon (VOR BCN) did you open up the Squawkbox option "File Flight plan" and change the route so it starded "DCT BCN"? I had exactly this situation, and I am flying it as I type. On take-off clearance, the EGGD_V_APP controller gave me a heading of "straight ahead", ie runway heading, until 3000ft, then he gave me clearance direct to BCN. With the FMC in my PMDG 737, I could route directly to BCN from where I was, and you can do the same with FSNav. I don't know why you and the controller couldn't agree the DCT route to BCN.As far as arrival at Manchester is concerned, TWR only takes control once you are established on the localiser for the correct runway. If there is a CTR or APP controller online, they will vector you for the correct runway. If there is only TWR online, it is up to you to select the correct runway depending on wind direction. If you get it wrong, there is little TWR can do about it other than let you know. His scope is limited to the airport and a few miles beyond. He cannot issue you with guidance to get you on to the correct runway.One crucial question at this point. Do you know how to obtain and interpret a METAR? You need to be able to do so to decide which is the correct runway. The METAR for EGCC on Servinfo right now is "EGCC 170020Z 20003KT 5000 BR FEW024 SCT140 01/01 Q0996". The figures you need to concentrate on are those with "KT", for knots, at the end. In this case the figure is 20003KT, which means wind direction 20 degrees, 3 knots. Similarly, 13018KT for this figure would mean wind direction 130 degrees, 18 knots. Crucially, the bearing is the direction the wind is coming FROM, so you need to select the runway with the closest bearing to the wind direction. Therefore, for Manchester right now, with winds at 200 degrees, the runway with the closest bearing is 24. There are 2 runways at Mancheste, and 24R is used for single runway operations.I appreaciate that if you are already familiar with METAR's, the above will seem patronising, and I apologise if this is the case. If not, however, I hope that this gives a useful pointer.Press the WX button in Servinfo for all the METAR's in the map region you are viewing.All the best!Bruce.

[Guest Agrajag]

>Strangely enough, I'm flying out of Bristol as I write!>>When you changed your flight plan in FSNav to route directly>to Brecon (VOR BCN) did you open up the Squawkbox option "File>Flight plan" and change the route so it starded "DCT BCN"? II didn't put a DCT in it. I assumed that was clear given the first waypoint of BCN. Where else would I head? >One crucial question at this point. Do you know how to obtain>and interpret a METAR? You need to be able to do so to decideAbsolutely not! That appears to be yet another task for this VATSIM newbie. >degrees, the runway with the closest bearing is 24. There are>2 runways at Mancheste, and 24R is used for single runway>operations.So if I hit one of the 24 runways I'd be ahead of the game but better to know that R is used for single operations. Gotcha. I assume departures are the same? >I appreaciate that if you are already familiar with METAR's,>the above will seem patronising, and I apologise if this isIt wouldn't have regardless. Not a newbie of online communications so since you really don't know me, it'd be a very broken up conversation if you went the other way. I much appreciate the forethought.>the case. If not, however, I hope that this gives a useful>pointer.VERY much so.>Press the WX button in Servinfo for all the METAR's in the map>region you are viewing.Is there a good checklist somewhere that covers all the steps in some order (with possible inclusions related to VATSIM if lucky) that would cover all this?Had an excellent flight, first one that was incident free from Miami to Orlando this evening. In fact, Orlando was BUSY, forced me to take a wide approach and had to come back around due to a lost engine by a Northwest flight that had just taken off on my final. THAT made me appreciate the realism.

[Guest Agrajag]

BTW, something else occured to me. In nearly every flight I've taken, I've gone ahead and gotten the preferred route and submitted that in my plan but the controls come back and change that. In fact, they often change it dramatically. If that's what they do, then why not just submit the destination airport and let them dictate the rest and then the pilot could request any necessary changes. Seems sort of a wasted effort to do all that pre-flight work just to end up with a completely different route. But then again, I suspect once I know more about how all this works, that won't be happening too often.

[GetStill 0]

I see you are learning quite a bit, and now you see what folks who want to do this for a living have to go through, like a couple of years and $35-50k USD. And you're learning things have a lot of details to them. Mostly you learn by doing and doing, over and over. You start out making mistakes and being confused, but one day down the road you'll fly one 100% all the way and be pretty happy with yourself.As to routes, filing a preferred route may increase your chances of getting that route but it is never a sure thing. We pilots never know the reasons we get the clearances we do. You can file direct and then see what you get in the read back if you like. But always have pen and paper nearby as you may get almost anything in the Clearance delivery. Sometimes they are long and comlicated, but more often than not I get back, "Cleared as filed".And on FSNav, the only person who can see anything on FSNav is you; no one else knows what you have there, or even that you do have it. The only way to adjust a flight plan that ATC can see is to reload it using SB and enter a new routing. Read up in the manual about how to file a flight plan; this is just refiling, same steps.We could make a checklist, but there is still sooo much detail, the checklist would likely more intimidate newbie's more than it would help them, I'm afraid. Stay tuned for more lessons in the PRC this year. Mike Bevington indicates we'll start working on the next phase very soon.Kyle

[Guest BK1]

Just another thought. It is worth checking the website of the ARTCC you're flying from or to for preferred routes. I have found that the routes set out here are favoured over the real world ones sometimes. the Miami ARTCC is a good example: http://www.avsim.com/hangar/satco/miamicenter/index2.htmlBTW Agragjag, I have been looking for the tutorial which started me off on VATSIM, but it had disappeared after PRC was implemented. However, I have found it. Take a look. Hopefully, it should answer some of your remaining questions:http://www.vatsim.net/gettingstarted_2002.htmlThe only other thing I would do is repeat Kyle's comment. Nothing you do in FSNav is seen or known by the controller. The controller only sees the flightplan you type in via SB...right click in the SB window, select "File Flight Plan" from the menu, and fill in the details. Read the tutorial above before you fly again though.Bruce.

[Guest BK1]

Just realised that the tutorial i referred to does not cover FS9 or SB relay. However, I figure you've already sorted the connection problems out, so ignore those parts dealing with connection. The rest has very useful info on filing of flight plans, exporting to SB from FSNav, and dealing with ATC.Bruce.

[Guest Agrajag]

Bruce, What resources do the controllers use to determine the plans they give back? Clearly they must be trained to do it a certain way so it should be somewhat repeatable.On the FS NAV/Controller issue, I didn't mean to suggest they see my FS Nav info. However, exporting from FS Nav to SB does fill in that information does it not? That's what I was referring to.I'm in a bit of a battle on the FSNAVIGATOR forum (lousy software for their forums don't help) over a couple things that bug me about FS Nav. That it cannot auto place airways and calculate with them as it does with VOR's, SID's and the like is just annoying.What I'm trying to get across is that FS Nav has the potential to replace a lot of software. Why I should need ServInfo for METAR (FS Nav could really do a nice job with this and put it to use) and FS Build AND FS Nav just concerns me. At last count I'm now being recommended to use 9 applications just to enjoy Flight Sim. I'm starting to wonder if we all haven't gotten a bit lost.

[Guest Agrajag]

Thanks for the great tutorial. Going over it now. Very helpful.

[Guest BK1]

You got me on that one! I know that some airways are unidirectional, and some VOR's are used exclusively for inbound or outbound flights, but it would be useful to have a controller's input here. Any takers?I think that Servinfo is pretty much essential in its own right, especially for seeing at a glance where the controllers and other aircraft are, so it's not a chore to get the METAR data from it as well. If FSNav connected to the weather servers to provide you with weather details it would save you switching away from FS to get the weather info for your destination, but quite frankly I can get the METAR within a couple of clicks anyway. I use ActiveSky for weather, and I enter my destination at the start and ask it to get the METAR. It is one click then to bring up the interface and the METAR is there.It is true that you need numerous apps open to fly online. In my case, FS, SB Host, ActiveSky, FSNav, Squawkbox, chatwindow fix for FS, Servinfo, AVC, and if I'm flying for my VA, an ACARS program as well. I think this is the case because VATSIM relies on voluntary and donated resources, and as needs arise, software is developed by different individuals with different skills. Then of course, Microsoft goes and launches a new FS version, and suddenly all the software can only work with it by means of additional apps written by different individuals.I have to say that once I'm used to starting the various apps in order, I don't find it a problem, and I see the variety of apps FREELY available to assist online flyers as a triumph, and one of the true strengths of the VATSIM community. JMHO :)Bruce.

[Guest 767simfan2]

All,I will start off by saying "THANK YOU," to all that have passed help along my way. Unfortunately, I have not been successful in my attempts to use the VATSIM network. I have spent more time trying to get this to work than I have on any other program I have ever dealt with.Simply put, I have come to the conclusion that some things are just not meant to be. However, I am not completely giving up on everything. I will keep in touch with this forum in the future with regards to the release of SB 3.0. Perhaps then, when the install is a little more polished and a few of the kinks are worked out I will try again. Until then, I will keep flying my 767PIC and MD80 around using the FS ATC.Yesterday evening, after spending over a week working with the VATSIM software, I decided it was time to jump back into FS. I ran a simple flight from KORD to KSTL with an MD80. With the exception of the "fly heading own navigation," clearances for a /s aircraft, I was quite please with the complete ATC coverage. At the end of my flight ATC even cleared me to taxi to a gate!Anyway, I want to say "thanks again," to all that tried to help. Also, I'd like to give cudos for those involved with the developement of VATSIM. I think the concept is GREAT! And, being that simming is a hobby of mine, I am for anything that helps to broaden the depth and ultimately the popularity of our hobby. Keep the sunny side up and who knows. . .maybe one day I'll meet up with you guys on-line!

[Vulcan 14]

I have read your posts here and on the FSNav forum Agrajag and all I can say is what a marketing man would say "60,000 users can't be wrong" :-)I also think you haven't fully grasped some of these programs.For instance "Why I should need ServInfo for METAR...."If you mean you need ServInfo to find out weather conditions at departure/arrival airports you don't. SB has an ACARS function which will give you weather conditions at departure/arrival airports.FSnav is not "lousy software", it just doesn't do what you want it to do without any help or work from you.I have used that s/ware for over 5 years and don't have a problem with it, sure I would like some enhancements but that is down to the author, a one man band. I would like some improvements with FS, a large s/ware company, but the improvements I would like are unlikely to come from either.If you want a flight plan done for you, with little input from you, I suggest you check out FSBuild which will generate a flight plan and with very little effort on your part format it into a style suitable for a number of other programs including SB.One other thought, if these programs do not do what you want why not create one that does it all and share it with the rest of us. I look forward to your upload to the Avsim library.

[Martin Georg EDDF 0]

>Bruce, Hello Agrajag,>What resources do the controllers use to determine the plans>they give back? Clearly they must be trained to do it a>certain way so it should be somewhat repeatable.Ich can give you some information on how this is handled here at VACC-SAG for Switzerland, Austria and Germany. Our vACC is maintaining a huge webbased database called the "SAG Flightplan Center (FPC)" (http://fpc.vacc-sag.org). At the moment this database contains about 4500 routings that either start or end at Switzerland, Austria or Germany on the one side and somehwere in Europe on the other side. All these routings are constantly maintained and validated by some database admins. Now how is this done?1) National routes are saved directly from standard routes documents we get from the national authorities. These routes are updated every 28 days when a new set of navdata (the so-called AIRAC cycle) becomes available2) All other european routes are made manually first by the admins and then they are validated by Eurocontrol. This real-life european Air Traffic Control Institution maintains a webbased validation-system for real-world operators, which is free to use. It covers whole Europe and we let all of our flightplans validate there every 56 days (thats for workload reasons only, we assume that there won