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Guest SHORT360

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Guest SHORT360

Darren, Kevin, Matt,Thanks for your comments. Despite my poor english you have absolutely understood what was the major concern of the thread I started.And I did forget. The part I was talking about was an old military radar bezel. Nothing like NG or 777 or last generation plane.I do not anyway planes you fly just pushing or rotating buttons. I like the old steam gauges and real heavy yoke. GreetingsRoger

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Guest rprather

I do apologize to you Darren, you shouldn't have been the recipient of my reply. Your letter was certainly not taken as mean, but your perpetuation of the "parts available for cheap" just kept a bad argument going.There was an underlying anger in my message which has actually led to me move away from the hobby now. I have received very little visible support for my efforts over the years, and it has gotten to the point where I can no longer put up with it. I have started removing information from my web sites. I have removed the A320 Collection from the Pro MFD web site, and will likely have the 744 Collection down within the hour. I will start pulling my reports, diagrams, etc. from other web sites as well. Why... you give this stuff away for free for years, and nobody reciprocates. Nobody links to your stuff, nobody uses the donation links, nobody talks you up in forums, nodoby even writes JUST to say thank you. That's the exact same reason Pete Dowson started charging for FSUIPC. Everybody out there is saying they want stuff for pennies on the dollar (or free), but ultimately it is unappreciated.I respond to 400-500 e-mails a month, and little comes of it. I see my diagrams popping up in other places without my permission. People ask for registration requests almost daily and don't even say hello or thank you. Most of the e-mails simply say, "I need a code for the A320 Collection" Not even a name.I will leave the registry as a resource for builders, but the availability of my other resources is pending currently. I will continue to develop and support the 777 Collection, but there will be no more freeware.I sincerely hope that the builders out there will show tribute to those trying to keep stuff free out there. You can't expect people to keep helping you if you don't show appreciation for those that do. Just about every web site has a BANNER for FDS and PM. But how many have banners for FreeFD, Pro MFD, or BlueSideUp. I KNOW many of you utilize these services, but I never see banners of appreciation.I will continue to build, but for now, I will no longer take an active roll among the general builders...Good day,Robert Prather

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Guest Steve M

Hi Robert,You can't please all of the people all of the time. I am sure there are many builder out there that are extremely grateful of the help and assistance you have given them. Unfortunately in the world we live in we all like something for nothing, and in the cases where we get software, advice or parts from another builder it is nice to show some appreciation. I have no issues with paying another builder for parts and having been treated extremely well by the people that supplied my seats and then been given 2 days access to and aircraft to remove anything that was let before it was destroyed, I try to repay there kindness by pointing other people in there direction. Yes people need to pay them for parts but at a fraction of what I have seen them being sold elsewhere.I am 100% positive that the majority sim builder feel the same way so for the silent majority I ask you keep things going, unfortunately it is only the negative posts that get a reaction and maybe you are right a bit of praise where it'd due would go a long way.When starting out building my sim, web site's like your inspired me to continue even when I reached the times that I am sure all of us have had when we thought enough is enough. When I create my web site for my sim shortly I would be glad to carry banners supporting the people that supported me because without them it's simple there would be no sim. Take care Steve

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Guest DarrenBe

Robert,No need to apologize, I was puzzled at the response to my post, thats all.I can actually understand where you are coming from. The past three years I've been more of a lurker than a contributor to the hobby. Although I have only helped a handful of other hobbyists, in either supplying aircraft manuals, diagrams, parts or information on part suppliers, when the time comes when I need assistance, it goes very quiet........I did get my fingers burnt very badly, so I no longer actively 'promote' what I can offer for others, however if I come across someone looking for information that I may have, I am still willing to help. Its my own way of ensuring that I am not swamped with requests. Also I no longer have the same amount of time to dedicate to the hobby as I used to. I remember when you first appeared on the scene several years ago, hacking keyboards to find a cheap solution in using toggle switches etc with your project. How times change :)Anyway best of luck in the future, but don't disappear completely. It will be nice to know when you finish your project.Darren

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Guest MattOlieman

Robert, I am saddened by your decision. You're not the only one that has made a decision similar to yours and for the same reason. It's too bad this keeps happening.I think we've all been burnt one way or another. I know it's easier to remember the bad rather then to good. I certainly am one of those.Robert,I've heard VERY MUCH from MANY, appreciation and admiration of your accomplishments and involvement within the Home Cockpit Building Community.

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>Robert, I am saddened by your decision. You're not the only>one that has made a decision similar to yours and for the same>reason. It's too bad this keeps happening.>>I think we've all been burnt one way or another. I know it's>easier to remember the bad rather then to good. I certainly>am one of those.>>Robert,I've heard VERY MUCH from MANY, appreciation and>admiration of your accomplishments and involvement within the>Home Cockpit Building Community.*** Note: This is not directed at Robert or anyone else, but I have just been thinking about these things myself for a while - this thread just sparked the inspiration to try to sum these up in this forum. ***This is precisely why it is important to ask yourself two questions before you start to design and think about your home cockpit.1) *why* do you want to build it?"To impress other people" is not a good idea. Of course it is good when you get pat in the back for some good ideas, or when you help someone to get started. Sure it feels good and the sense of the community is great too. But *why do you want a home cockpit?* - it should be for *yourself* - not to show it off to others.2) *what* do you want to accomplish with it?Do you want to make your simulator flight experience more realistic? Then, you do not necessarily need to have a 1:1 replica of a real flight deck with tolerances within fraction of a millimeter from the original, with all original parts and the best money can buy. Remember, not to show off, but to improve your own experience :)Keyboard hacking, simple electronics and stuff like that can do wonders. For those who fly big jets, a MCP autopilot panel with heading and altitude adjustment knobs and stuff does a LOT. Adding the cockpit shell can increase immersion, but do not bite too much at once. The "as real as it gets" in the looks is 90% of the *work* but does not increase the *feeling of realism* by 90% - it does not have to be all real parts to get you there - and it doesnt have to be a full cockpit to get there. It doesnt have to be backlightable to work - use plywood or something else that can be worked with the tools you have :)It doesnt have to be dual concentric encoder to work - use two knobs separately to tune radios :)It doesnt have to be a real B744 seat with genuine B744 captain sweat stains from approaches to Kai Tak. Use a car seat from a junkyard. :)The knobs do not need to be exactly like on the 737 - use knobs from the electronics store - you can paint them to correct color later if you want.The precise paint color of the panel can be just irrelevant if you dont worry too much. :)Sometimes a "generic" aircraft is a better approach than a 1:1 simulation of a existing type - more flexibility, plus most commercial add-on planes have custom stuff that cannot be interfaced to anyway.Anyway, I guess you get the idea.The best way to find out is to start from something small, and like others have also mentioned: Do something that you can use, build more and keep the thing "flyable" - the experience you get from the *flying* of the simulator will guide you to the right direction in finding what works for *realism in the feeling*. Do not waste time in the non-essential stuff until you get the basics right - then you can polish and decorate to your hearts content. The style of the MCP knobs is less important - what is important is that the MCP feels solid enough, and the knobs have good detents and that it works. Add the knobs last :)I hope I made my point at least a bit understandable, it's getting late so I better sleep :)//Tuomas

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Guest kdfossum

I think you had some great points, and for most people who are buildings cockpits it's for the realism.I do however want to build as exact replica as possible of the 744, and to answer your question *why*, it's not to show off, it's partly to make it realistic, but most of all, it's the project itself that turns me on.The journey of getting there. Sure it will be a blast when it's done, but I will mostly enjoy the project itself.Sometimes I think, why not go and get a pilot's license... Cant be more realistic than that right?Besides, the cost of building a with authentic parts will most likely more expensive than to get a commercial pilot's license anyway.I do however get very disencouraged when I see a scrapped panel go for $500.RgrdsKevin

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Guest High Octane

Guys I must say, I TOTALLY... I mean TOTALLY 110% understand how Robert feel, that goes for Mr Dowson too....Since 1998, I have seen, or know by my heart that they have been dedicating a lot I mean A LOT of time doing correction, editing, updating, answering e-mails/forum question to help solving problem for cockpit builders on their softwares. I bet , at seldom of time they probablly eveb ate their dinner by the computer instead of sitting down at the table with family. Now what did they get? probablly being advantaged by greedy cockpit builders. of course because its free! I even bet, there are some times they would love to hear out others postive feebacks, or appaulding on their hard work, but instead heard negatives. So that concludes with the reason why every freeware software has turn into payware. I am kinda disappointed, knowing Robert has just wanted to put his hobby away just because he helped us so much, and we did nothing exchange to him. Take a look at PRO SIMMERS like James Price, Michael Lehkamp, Matt Witelpatch, and others.. Why do you think they stop sharing their e mails ? Why do you think they stop visiting this forum? I am not here trying to offending or blaming on everybody.. I am here to tell everybody to WAKE UP, AND SMELL THE COFFEE.. THINK HARD. Think of what Toumas said,,,Why are we buiding our simulaor for? why is this forum established? Its not about competion, its not about collecting information, taking advatage of people work to make some benefit. its about helping others or show some appreciation of their work. Seriously.. This is getting silly if everyone want to be best. For what, theres no Award, no monies, no prizes. Every Cockpit builders has right to build their cockpit in the exactness, the attention to every conceivable details. Every cockpit builders has right to build their cockpit at flexible point with out having exact details. At least appreciates eachother work. Basically, I kinda getting tired of this... If nothing continue to solve about greed. Might as well want to stop visit this forumRobert, may the true and good dream of yours bring out in the ahead of you.:)

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>Basically, I kinda getting tired of this... If nothing>continue to solve about greed. Might as well want to stop>visit this forumNah, concentrate on your project instead - that is and should be the whole point. Also, if financially and medically possible, the private pilots license is a great thing. Nothing beats real flight. Home cockpits can be great too, but as for aviation, there's LOTS more out there than flying B744's into London Heathrow until you retire ;^) Aviation can make a great hobby with great friends too. But anyway, lets not concentrate on the bad stuff that much, what has taken this forum this far has been the spirit of co-operation - there will always be people who see the stereotypical north american retiring gentleman who gets this idea of purchasing a 737 flight deck section andm aking it to a home cockpit in his garage.. Let there be people who cater to him.For the rest of us, we can continue sharing the ideas and tricks just as before :-)//Tuomas

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Guest mattford1

Guys-Speaking as one the first "pro" cockpit builders around (was the first to use a commercial (737 cockpit) for a simulator (www.737sim.com). I thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth.When I bought my 737 6 or so years ago, I paid $1000.00 for the whole cockpit. Keep in mind it was stripped and not much was available in terms of other scrapped 737's. I was the first on the block to do this sort of thing with a complete Boeing jet, so the scrap yards let the stuff go for cheap. Today, I dont think you can't touch a flight deck for under 15K, which is indeed sad, but a result of market demand. I completely understand and support where Robert Prather is coming from. Anyone that thinks his pricing is high should try calling the commercial parts houses and they will soon find out what an affordable source he really is. Many of these parts that he lists are 75% less than what the market currently sells them for. Do people even stop to think about his time and money that he has spent sourcing these things? I don't think you can blame him at all for trying, at the most, to cover his costs. I met Robert about two years ago, and hee is perhaps one of the most generous people I've met in this hobby and consider him a good friend.A good friend of mine overseas started a sim parts business about 5 years ago. His original intent was to sell mid-range stuff to the home-hobbyist. He quickly found out that 99.9% of the "simmers" out there wanted something for next to nothing, with no clear understanding about what kind of capital it takes to develop and manufacture these things. After about a year of dealing with simmers complaining of his pricing, he ditched the "hobbyists" completely and sold purely to the professional training companies and made a small fortune. Good for him!!!When I first entered this hobby, stuff was cheap, and I too am bummed about the rise of the prices. Bottom line, is that it's a market economy. The price is set by what people will pay and that's the way it is. I don't fault someone for wanting to get the most amount of cash for what they are trying to sell. I've spent probably around $50,000.00 on my sim. If selling some parts at a premium price in order to pay for upgrades would work, you bet i'd do it.To say too that someone is being "greedy" by getting the most amount of money for their parts I think is misplaced. I live in Los Angeles and bought a nice house for a good chunk of change about 6 years ago. Since then my property value has tripled and could easily unload it in two weeks time. Would I be "greedy" to try and walk away with the most amount of cash possible?Just my opinion :-).Thanks,Matt Fordwww.737sim.com

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Guest SHORT360

Matt,Sorry but all those arguments about business, market prices, dollars, commercial parts, list prices and so on just give me a big big headaches and the nausea.Just my feelingGreetingsRoger

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Guest MattOlieman

Roger, you started this thread, and you JUST DON'T GET IT! You've started other unreasonable arguments, here and other forums, of what "you don't know what your talking about." Most people, here, know what a fair price is. We may not like the price, but most of us understand the value.Matt Ford, you hit the nail on the head, I could of not said it better, congratulations are in order.My project comes from a different direction, then of Matt Ford. I'm building from scratch, not using actual aircraft parts. Let me tell you, that isn't cheap either. One of my over head panels, with back-lighting, switches, after completed, cost me over $600.00. That is a value "I accept." You don't have to like it, that's your prerogative, just don't criticize the ones that accept it.If you don't like the prices, go somewhere else and keep your criticism to yourself. This is not the time or place for that kind of thing.Frankly, even this post (my post), should not even have been posted. But this thread just makes the hair on my back stand straight up, and I could not help but make a response. This is not what this forum is about. It's just that I've got to much respect for all the builders here, whether they build their cockpit from cardboard panels or the actual cockpit. They've worked hard for what they have, and have nothing but admiration for what they have accomplished.

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Guest SHORT360

DELETED - No comments anymore -

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