Realistic force feedback with coil & magnet ?

[Guest PhilippeV8]

Perhaps this works ?http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/168952.zip

[kunzel4 0]

>Perhaps this works ?>>http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/168952.zip>Gentlemen ,This way the file open .RgdsAlberto Kunzel

[Guest PhilippeV8]

Looking at the FF joystick thing .. the setup with a motor and a potentiometer giving both way feedback to each other .. sounds like a servo to me ? Right ?How about using very strong servo's ? In combo with .. e.g. IOcards USB-Servo ?Either way, I'm going to try to ask someone I know whom works at a Citroen garage if he can help me find 2 similar wind screen wiper motors. I think these should work. As said, I used them before and they got plenty of torque and have relative low speed. I think they work at 12V and are reversible.

[Guest MikePowell]

This topic came up a few years ago. IIRC Roger Wielgus did some experiments with windshield wiper motors and had unsatisfactory results. Motor selection is very important. Most motors are designed to have spinning rotors. Motors for use in control loading must be designed to operate safely without spinning. This requirement has profound implications in the design of the motor. Operating a standard motor at too low a speed with a full load with damage it. Commercial control loaders use a "servo motor" that is designed for the application.Mikewww.mikesflightdeck.comwww.mikesflightdeckbooks.com

[Guest PhilippeV8]

Ok, I've done a search and browsed trough all the topics and posts. Sad however that all images attached are long gone.There is a part however in the storry of Roger which I don't understand. At first he's real optimistic. The wiper motors give good force etc. But then he adds a servo control thing and the whole thing gone bad ? What happened there ? Why was the servo control thing used in the first place ?

[Guest MikePowell]

Sorry, I don't remember what finally caused him to become unhappy with the approach. I think he bought the servo control unit because it provided the capability to control the large electrical current required by the wiper motor. Mikewww.mikesflightdeck.comwww.mikesflightdeckbooks.com

[Guest rolandvanroy]

Seems that I missed that discussion with Roger Wielgus. It was indeed during my international move and other move. I didn't know about specific motor designs for stalled working conditions, but it makes sense to me now why the industrial servo motor for pitch control loading never gave me any trouble, but the smaller motor for roll had lots of overheating issues. I had to rewind the anchor twice, and also had to add more spring force on the carbon brushes, add a fan and still it smells when I use it in high spring force settings. Indeed motor choice is very critical for this application.I find FF added to a real size yoke or stick is really a worthwhile addition to the simpit. It is great to feel the yoke (or stick) force increase with speed, being able to trim on feel, or having different feel with different airplaines. It's one of those things you easily get used to, and then becomes hard to do without. BTW, the FSforce utility makes the FF much better than standard MSFS. Roland

[Guest PhilippeV8]

I found a second hand Logitech strike force 3D. Should I buy it ? Is using an existing FF system the good way to go ?I could try adding the wiper motors to this device. I think I can get these motors pretty cheap. If I don't get good results, I could look for other motors in time.Anyone has an idea if using this existing FF system would make the difference where the setup from Roger got wrong, or not ?

[Guest MikePowell]

Before buying anything, it might be better to more clearly define your desired outcome.What peak force do you want? Frequency response? and so on.Mikewww.mikesflightdeck.comwww.mikesflightdeckbooks.com

[Guest rolandvanroy]

I'm not sure about the logitec strike force 3D, but good chance that the hardware is similar to the Logitech Wingman Force Feedback 3D joystick that I hacked. Details on the circuit are on my website. Depends on the price whether you want to take the chance. You'll need a current buffer, the FF stick motor drive cannot deliver the current needed for bigger motors. You'll need some electronics knowhow for that.

[Guest PhilippeV8]

Hi Mike,What I'm looking for as a result is:When airspeed goos up the force increases for ailron & pitch. I don't care so much for the rudder. I like the setup from tigert with the bunjey cables being pulled tighter. However, with such a setup if you fly 250 kts, pull the yoke towards yourself, say 10cm, then let go, it will return to 0 position rapidly and even say "boioioioing" if you get what I mean. So it also needs some kind of brake or friction to make it return to center slowly enough. However when I'm at very low speed on the ground or in stall in the air, the controls should be quite loose.The kind of force I would like is hard for me to define. But I guess, the harder the better. I doubt that it would be possible to make a force that is harder than I can pull. But going back from "lots of force" to less should be more easy than going from not enough to harder.

[Guest PhilippeV8]

I found 2 offers.First is a strike force for

[Guest rolandvanroy]

I'm not sure exactly what real plane yokes would do if you were pulling hard on the yoke in untrimmed condition and then suddenly let go of the yoke. Somehow I' don't think it is a wise thing to try in real life. In my hacked FF yoke or stick setup, the FF system will start to oscillate. Stick going back and forth continuously) This is not unexpected, as the system is basically a servo with software controlled feedback. To make it stable, a damping network based on electrical and mechanical properties would need to be added. This damping could be done electrical or mechanical (or software?). I have not bothered, just keep the stick in hand. When in trimmed condition, I can let go of the stick, but sometimes a small FF effect can make it go into oscillation again.

[Guest PhilippeV8]

I'll send over an e-mail to the CAE sim guy and ask him what the effect is in the sim and if he knows if it's any different in real. (the untrimmed, let go, scenario)

[Guest PhilippeV8]

The answer I got is: for the F50 it's fairly similar to a car. However, when driving a car at 70 km/h on a highway exit turn, I have never let go of the wheel :(