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ejoiner

To all of Anniette's critics...................

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I was very saddened at what I heard, and at the same time annoyed by other people's lack of knowledge in their hobby. A certain person said that she was being hypocritical, as the logos etc were copyrighted in themself..... now what this ill advised fool didn't know is that many airlines are aware of the practice, and in the case of American Airlines they are "flattered" by painters using their livery* :) I quoted directly from American Airlines .... how much more proof do you need? :(Some people want everything for nothing, and when they realise that there are restictions.. they throw their toys out of their pram :-rollWhat kind of person would send viruses, and hate emails to someone so harmless? I'll tell you whom: Sad, immature, pathetic people!* = Quoted from American Airlines in 2001 :(

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>... now what >this ill advised fool didn't know is that many airlines are >aware of the practice, and in the case of American >Airlines they are "flattered" by painters using their >livery* :) I quoted directly from American Airlines >.... how much more proof do you need? :( Thanks BweeA340, you pretty much said what I was going to. If the AIRLINES THEMSELVES are not complaining about the use of their logos, for a game, and with usage that is not for profit, then who are these other individuals to complain about the use of them? Yeah, sure, let's all just have Orbit, World Travel, Landmark, Global Freightways, and nothing else. IF, and that's a BIG if, an airline goes to the extent of making an issue of people using their logos, then that would be a different story. Has it ever happened in all the years of flight simming? This whole issue is ridiculous.To paraphrase, and distort, the quote of Spock in "STAR TREK: THE WRATH OF KAHN"...it seems that the needs of the *few* outweigh the desires of the *many* in this hobby at times.Anniette, if you are reading this, I can understand if you don't want to paint for the general public anymore, but please don't go away completely. I think that you can see that there are many more who welcome you here than those that want to give you grief. To those that have, well, guess what I have to say to YOU?

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Why am I biting :-roll.">... now what >this ill advised fool didn't know is that many airlines are >aware of the practice, and in the case of American >Airlines they are "flattered" by painters using their >livery* I quoted directly from American Airlines >.... how much more proof do you need?"That is why American had removed all files a while back on FS.com.That is why many Virtual Airlines have been shut downor asked to chang their name.This "ill advised fool" just so happens to work for an airline. This "ill advised foll" just so happens to know that the airline paid someone to design the livery" This "ill advised fool" knows that liveries are registered trademarks and copyrighted by airlines" This ill advised fool knows that most do not ask the airline they painted if they could have permission to copy ther logo and livery.The last one was my point. When someone takes a texture that you painted and uses it without permission you get upset right? They don't ask they just use it. Now when someone copies a texture or livery from an airline without asking that seems to be ok. I'm not saying that airlines are going to say no. I'm saying that you should show the same respect to the one who's livery and logo your copying that you would expect from others that want to copy yours. Thats all.As far as being critical of Mikes or Anniettes work. I think they are very talented people. I appreciate what they do. I have no hard feelings towards them as I hope they don't have towards me.Again I am going to repeat "you should show the same respect to the one who's livery and logo your copying that you would expect from others that want to copy yours. Thats all." This isn't condoning stealing, piracy, or not appreciating ones work. This is just hoping that people would treat others as they want to be treated. Now please do not attack me by making childish remarks such as "ill advised fool" I didn't attack you and I don't even know you. Jeff Cole

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Pram = perambulator = stroller(U.S.)People sending viruses should have their genitalia removed using dull or blunt instruments.Apart from that I'm really a fun guy!

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You just don't know when to stop, do you? It is because of all the crap you stirred up, she's not here. It is common practice to use the airline names and logos. Been going on for years. They know it and do not mind it. 41 posts to your name and all you have done so far is to raise everyones bloodpressure in here. You have not contributed anything to the sim community except aggrivation. I know I am not the only one who would really prefer you to leave. Your posts are nothing but negative and very gruff to individuals. I see what you're doing with your posts and you are like a window buddy. I can see right thru you. Go find another forum to stir things up in and do us all a favor. It's your type who is going to ruin it for everyone. I have no idea what thrill you get by doing this and if there is another agenda to your efforts, but many others including myself are about sick of it. If you can't contribute to the community in a positive, upbeat way, save the bandwidth for those who can. If you have no talents, don't condem those who do. Don

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Don,Geese, give me a break. I have done work here my company asked me to stop because of the copyright thats all. I said I was sorry. All I wanted to say is the people should treat others with the same respect as the want to be treated.Frankly I could care less how you feel about me. I don't know you and you don't know me. I apologized to all including you in the below thread. What else do you want. I never bashed ones work!!!!What is it going to take!!!!Jeff

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Right after I posted this I saw your post. (note time...minutes apart) You are correct. Drop it and never mention it again. I hope Anniette comes back, but I fear we have lost one of the best repainters I have seen for good. Don

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Don,Trust me that wasn't my intention. I hope she would come back.Im sorry if I upset all here. I just want people to respect others work thats all.Jeff

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Jeff,Who the h*ll elected you to the role of forum police anyway? In the span of a few worthless posts, you have come to embody everything that's wrong about this hobby. If cancer needed a mascot, you'd have my vote. So why not haul your self-righteous arse back out the door it came through and let the rest of us enjoy a moment's peace without hearing about your zealous 'cause'.J

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I don't see you complaining about anyone else painting real airline liveries.There's only about 25 of them posted daily, and that's just on this site...Don't you think that it is up to the airline management and legal department to decide what is allowed and what is not?If you're so disturbed by people duplicating the liveries on real aircraft I suggest you send a letter to the legal staff of the aircraft owner for every repaint on the internet asking them to take legal action against the painter.That would be the appropriate way.Most airlines don't mind people painting their livery. AA for a while did, but what they really wanted was to prevent other people making money out of it. Once an agreement was reached (brokered by Avsim among others) that noone would sell liveries of AA without explicit permission, that ban was lifted.Airlines like to have people see their logo and name all the time. Guess what, it brings brand recognition...Airlines stopping VAs is another matter. Those VAs usually mimmick the real airline in everything they do, including website design. Some don't even mention they're a VA on their website.Such behaveour is intollerable as it has the potential to directly interfere with operations of the airline.You're a vigilante with a wrong cause. Usually those end up dead or in prison in real life. Over here, you'll probably just end up despised and ignored.Now you go and stop POSKY, FFG, PFG, AFG, CSi, and all the others from painting realworld liveries! Let's see how long you survive trying to do that!

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yes it was your intention. Saying it was not is like saying it was not your intention to kill the man you shot when you pulled the trigger of the gun you had placed to his head.It's a very thin defense and everyone can look right through it.

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If I may step in here and offer a few words....As a repainter myself and I think that first off; what we paint is a copy of copyrighted material, plain and simple. There is no room for argument and to say otherwise is incorrect. Whether the airlines turns a blind eye or not doesn't change the fact that all airline logos, names, symbols, etc are OWNED by the respective airline.As excersized by American Airlines during the Peter Tishma debacle, all an airline has to do is execute a cease and desist order and *POOF* we are all flying blank airplanes. LIKEWISE just as Cessna and Beechcraft did with FLY! (told them NOT to use their names) Boeing and Airbus can force us to stop using their names and *POOF* we are flying BLANK 'Going 797s' and 'Airflues Q420s'.Artists such as myself and the rest who contribute much more than I ever could to this hobby, exist on the good graces of those whom we wish to represent in the form of a repaint of a livery or the design of an aircraft. We (generally) don't ask for permission to represent an airline livery or an aircraft and THEY generally don't complain.NOW, with that said, what we are working on here is common decency. If someone here in this community takes the time to paint or build an aircraft it SHOULD be a given that one does not just up and copy the work that a person took hours, days, weeks, years, to design. It is just not done. In this case Anniette, has proven herself to be a solid contributor, selfless collaborator and an all around VERY nice person and I can in no way shape or form logicize why she should be chastised especially since she gives of her talents for free. No one here has the right, and I say now STOP IT! However, DON'T make the mistake that anyone here can claim a copyright on someone elses work because you cant. I can't claim that my repaint of a Continental Airlines logo is mine to enforce because it is not. It is an exact replica of something an airline paid someone to develop and market and it belongs to them. Just like when I tried to release my Peter Max 777, I was shot down by Peter Max himself who under NO circumstances wanted his work reproduced. End of story. Again, there is no room for argument because it is the law (in most countries).Payware contributors such as Dreamfleet, PSS, etc. make money off of the use of other's copyrighted or even patented work (i.e. logos, aircraft designs, panels, etc.) and in the vast majority of cases, no royalties are collected or enforced. This, again, is done out of the good graces of the real world aviation community who respects that we are a group of PROPONENTS and LOYALISTS and in representing an airline livery or aircraft, it is done out of the LOVE and RESPECT for the beauty of the work of others. For me, I paint primarily Continental Aircraft, but in turn, I am a Continental Elite Frequent Flier, and spend a great deal of money by being loyal to Continental. It is a win-win situation.My point here is that this should not be about what is not even ours to fight over. The point here should be that of SIMPLE COMMON RESPECT (period).But in the same token I am a realist. If I found that someone has copied my copy of a logo, what am I to do? Can I sue? Well, not if the airline doesn't. How will I explain to a judge that I copied someone elses work without permission and then someone copied my work without permission and I want to be compensated for it? I can hear the jury's laughter now! :-lol However, if you DO decide to copy that which has been given or sold to this community without permission then all you do is exhibit the lack of morals, decency, respect that your parents should have taught you as a child and I pity you. (REGARLESS of who owns the logo).So, let's all stop the self righteous bullpucky, and enjoy our hobby for what it is. Just like the airlines are 'flattered' when somone else copies their logo, so should we. If THEY don't complain, I wonder what right we have?Just my opinion, but I could be wrong - Dennis Miller :-beerchug

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I have got to say I disagree with this. The airline certainly has the rights to their own logo (no argument there) but the repaints we are talking about is much more than a logo. The whole model is textured, seam lines drawn in, labels, (possibly) windows, shadows, reflections, wear, oil and dirt. Some of them are works of art... How can anyone justify someone taking a model / textures that the original author has spent hours working on, adding a little text and putting it out as original work ???

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He never said you don't have rights to the entire work.But if someone cuts out a small piece and uses that there's little you can do.Fuselage lines, windows, etc. are not used by consent of the airline, they're the painter's creation.Logos and fonts ARE trademarks and owned by someone else, used by implicit or explicit consent.Personally I wouldn't take the logo someone else created, except maybe as an example.Too much fun making my own :-)

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Thank you for explaining it well!!!!!!!!!!For those of you that think I popped up all of a sudden. I have been around for quite a long time. It is funny how one doesn't like to be attacked and to say it is wrong but then they can attack another.It is funny how one can judge another by "41" posts on an AVSIM forum.It is funny how one is judged by how much freeware you hand out.It's funny how one goes against the grain and gets flamed for it.

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I just wanted to thank you all for the nice comments. I'm glad the lord gave you the right to judge people by the number of repaints one does. The number of posts one has posted to Avsim, and by how long one has belonged to Avsim.I appreciate the personal attacks because I didn't go along with the majority. I appreciate the attacks regarding my thoughts and opinions. I appreciate the attacks that are ok for you to do but not ok for anybody else. Why is it if anybody goes against the grain they get flamed out. All I tried to say is respect others work and that includes Airlines. "It's been a common practice for years" Ok so has piracy that doesn't make it right. "The airlines love it" Hey thats great I glad for you, but some don't.I'm not trying to enforce anything. I'm not trying to bring down freeware.Now flame some more please........ I'm sure you like to be treated the same

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Taken from my post in a previous thread. I'm sorry some of it repeats what others have said.Jeff does have a point from a legal stance regarding copyright, logo's ect, though most airlines welcome the free publicity this non profit "community" generates. If not Avsim, Flightsim.com and other would not exist today, if Tom had not taken to task a certain somebody you wouldnt have a hobby today. At the top of this page is the thread by Tom, the person who may or may not be behind one payware organisation is the one who started this whole sorry mess, regarding copyright, trademark. Many innocent kids recieved heavyweight letters of cease and desist, I believe one was so traumatised he contemplated suicide, allegedly. Remember also this is the man who publicly said he or his company would NEVER breech copyright, trademarks ect. Now IF (I use my words carefully)it is proven the the same person IS behind the same outfit, turn your anger and frustration on him, same goes for you Jeff. You then have a legitimate argument and he becomes a legitimate target for ALL of our anger and frustration and a few legal suites from the Airlines for breech of Copyright, Trademark ect.It's great to see a tidal wave of support for Anniette but none of you take it out on her or Jeff, bide your time and remember who the real hypocritical culprtit is.Respect and regards to you all.Elder statesman George

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No, it's 45 posts now and it's still going on. She didn't lay claim to the copywrite and trademark of the airline and their artwork. She lays claim to the bitmap. I read your apology. You have to have the last word, don't you. IF that was an apology, it would have said you were sorry and that was that. You had to add another line to it. We don't need a good will angel coming in here or anywhere, telling us what we should do with our own stuff. I could tear your 5 reasons above to pieces, but I am not going to waste my time in here arguing with someone who can't see an individuals rights. Who are you to defend the airlines of the world? Was this an appointed job or just a task of good will to the community of metal wings? Come on Jeff, enough. Don't stick around and rally the troops to find some to follow your quest. There will be few. VERY few. Drop it before you do more damage. It's that easy. Drop it. Don't post anything about it. Drop it. You may also notice when/if you drop it, because of your actions, you probably have also alienated yourself here too as far as a "help" desk. Congrats buddy. You sure came out on this one. NOT.Don

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Very well said, Mike! I think there has nothing to be added.Regards,Wolfgang

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This is a repeat of a post I have just made re releasing another texture for the simming community I have created a livery of the Sun Country B727 aircraft, in response to a request from "Kirby"http://www.gjsmith.com/images/B727-Sun-1.jpgThis artwork was created from an image available to me (and the entire WWW) from airliners.net. I have created the artwork and texture from a white BMP format through graphic efforts and tools available to me. The similarity to the real Sun Country is intended as I tried to represent as close as possible the real world aircraft that Sun Country fly. The saga that is going on about copyright for aircraft liveries is creating a lot of friction for many people. Let me say this - I have three excellent oil paintings, hanging in my study, done by a famous (in Australia at least) military and civil aircraft painter - each of them represent particular liveries - WWII, Korea, and a Civilian airliner. The artist put quite a bit of effort into each artwork and I paid a large sum for each of these works of art - but for the life of me I did not enquire if he had sort permission to make money from his paintings of these liveries - because undoubtedly he was copying someone else's real world work and I know for a fact that he was working from pictures of the aircraft concerned for each painting. Maybe what he does for art and a living and what I do in creating free artwork of real world aircraft is wrong in the eyes of some people, maybe even many - however, my intention is to add realism and fun to a flight sim environment that is based on the real world of flying and what would that be if we could not have real world liveries.By the way, virtually all of the aircraft liveries that I have created that represent real world liveries have been created in response to request from you simmers out there - many I do not even use myself. Therefore should propose that all texture request must be accompanied with a letter of consent from the Airline in question.Can we either let this matter rest - or make a clear directive for all painters - either YES or NO for real world liveries and lets be done with it. Just make a decision and let me know the boundaries that are acceptable.Sorry for the big post.Garry J. Smith at http://www.gjsmith.comAircraft Texture Tinkererhttp://www.gjsmith.com/images/GJS-banner.gif

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My last say on this....Ok, Ok, stop chearing.I went to a lawyer who deals in copyright/trademark law. I explained this mess to him. He said there is no fundamental problem in freeware authors basing their work on real life airline liveries. Unless, and only if, the airline in question chooses to object. He said until such a time as the airline does notify the person using their logo to stop doing so, THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM, per the fair use doctrine. He also pointed out that only the airline in question or their legally appointed representative have the right to pass judgement on the use of the their property or set conditions on its use. He said that for anyone else to do so was, in his humble opinion, a more serious issue than the use of the trademark to begin with. So, from the standpoint of this freeware author, I will continue to create aircraft painted in the livery of commercial airlines, UNTIL such a time as I personally receive notice from a LEGALLY APPOINTED REPRESENTATIVE of the airline, that I am not to. At that time I will stop. Period.Mike Stone

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I concur with you Mike, When and if we receive a formal request from a representative of an airline organistation then we cease that particular work - until then all other "opinions" can/will be ignored.As a matter of interest - I also sort consultation with international copyright authorities (as part of my real world work sometimes borders on this issue) and their response was similar to the one you got in relation to fair use doctrine and ceasing only if/when requested to do so formally by a legal representative. In fact they also advised that in some circumstances related to creative artwork in an alternative media that sales (with consideration to consent requirements if highlighted) can be made. Anyway - like you I am just feed up with the issue but will continue to paint textures - particularly your aircraft if you don't mind.RegardsGarry J. Smith at http://www.gjsmith.comAircraft Texture Tinkererhttp://www.gjsmith.com/images/GJS-banner.gif

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Ummmm.Again. I do NOT justify ANYONE copying ANYONE'S work. Please reread my post :-)Mike T.

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Well, almost my final say.....I have a book in front of me right now. It is an HTML reference. It contains screen prints, including Netscape's logos and trademarks. I quote the book..."Netscape Communications Corporation has not authorized, sponsored, endorsed, or approved this publication and is not responsible for its content"This is immediately below the following...."Copyright 1999 Sybex Inc."Go tell Sybex they can't claim copyright ownership of the book because their work contains Netscape's logo.Hogwash.Mike Stone

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