To all of Anniette's critics...................

[Guest]

I just wanted to thank you all for the nice comments. I'm glad the lord gave you the right to judge people by the number of repaints one does. The number of posts one has posted to Avsim, and by how long one has belonged to Avsim.I appreciate the personal attacks because I didn't go along with the majority. I appreciate the attacks regarding my thoughts and opinions. I appreciate the attacks that are ok for you to do but not ok for anybody else. Why is it if anybody goes against the grain they get flamed out. All I tried to say is respect others work and that includes Airlines. "It's been a common practice for years" Ok so has piracy that doesn't make it right. "The airlines love it" Hey thats great I glad for you, but some don't.I'm not trying to enforce anything. I'm not trying to bring down freeware.Now flame some more please........ I'm sure you like to be treated the same

[Guest]

Taken from my post in a previous thread. I'm sorry some of it repeats what others have said.Jeff does have a point from a legal stance regarding copyright, logo's ect, though most airlines welcome the free publicity this non profit "community" generates. If not Avsim, Flightsim.com and other would not exist today, if Tom had not taken to task a certain somebody you wouldnt have a hobby today. At the top of this page is the thread by Tom, the person who may or may not be behind one payware organisation is the one who started this whole sorry mess, regarding copyright, trademark. Many innocent kids recieved heavyweight letters of cease and desist, I believe one was so traumatised he contemplated suicide, allegedly. Remember also this is the man who publicly said he or his company would NEVER breech copyright, trademarks ect. Now IF (I use my words carefully)it is proven the the same person IS behind the same outfit, turn your anger and frustration on him, same goes for you Jeff. You then have a legitimate argument and he becomes a legitimate target for ALL of our anger and frustration and a few legal suites from the Airlines for breech of Copyright, Trademark ect.It's great to see a tidal wave of support for Anniette but none of you take it out on her or Jeff, bide your time and remember who the real hypocritical culprtit is.Respect and regards to you all.Elder statesman George

[Donmo 6]

No, it's 45 posts now and it's still going on. She didn't lay claim to the copywrite and trademark of the airline and their artwork. She lays claim to the bitmap. I read your apology. You have to have the last word, don't you. IF that was an apology, it would have said you were sorry and that was that. You had to add another line to it. We don't need a good will angel coming in here or anywhere, telling us what we should do with our own stuff. I could tear your 5 reasons above to pieces, but I am not going to waste my time in here arguing with someone who can't see an individuals rights. Who are you to defend the airlines of the world? Was this an appointed job or just a task of good will to the community of metal wings? Come on Jeff, enough. Don't stick around and rally the troops to find some to follow your quest. There will be few. VERY few. Drop it before you do more damage. It's that easy. Drop it. Don't post anything about it. Drop it. You may also notice when/if you drop it, because of your actions, you probably have also alienated yourself here too as far as a "help" desk. Congrats buddy. You sure came out on this one. NOT.Don

[Wolfko 0]

Very well said, Mike! I think there has nothing to be added.Regards,Wolfgang

[Guest]

This is a repeat of a post I have just made re releasing another texture for the simming community I have created a livery of the Sun Country B727 aircraft, in response to a request from "Kirby"http://www.gjsmith.com/images/B727-Sun-1.jpgThis artwork was created from an image available to me (and the entire WWW) from airliners.net. I have created the artwork and texture from a white BMP format through graphic efforts and tools available to me. The similarity to the real Sun Country is intended as I tried to represent as close as possible the real world aircraft that Sun Country fly. The saga that is going on about copyright for aircraft liveries is creating a lot of friction for many people. Let me say this - I have three excellent oil paintings, hanging in my study, done by a famous (in Australia at least) military and civil aircraft painter - each of them represent particular liveries - WWII, Korea, and a Civilian airliner. The artist put quite a bit of effort into each artwork and I paid a large sum for each of these works of art - but for the life of me I did not enquire if he had sort permission to make money from his paintings of these liveries - because undoubtedly he was copying someone else's real world work and I know for a fact that he was working from pictures of the aircraft concerned for each painting. Maybe what he does for art and a living and what I do in creating free artwork of real world aircraft is wrong in the eyes of some people, maybe even many - however, my intention is to add realism and fun to a flight sim environment that is based on the real world of flying and what would that be if we could not have real world liveries.By the way, virtually all of the aircraft liveries that I have created that represent real world liveries have been created in response to request from you simmers out there - many I do not even use myself. Therefore should propose that all texture request must be accompanied with a letter of consent from the Airline in question.Can we either let this matter rest - or make a clear directive for all painters - either YES or NO for real world liveries and lets be done with it. Just make a decision and let me know the boundaries that are acceptable.Sorry for the big post.Garry J. Smith at http://www.gjsmith.comAircraft Texture Tinkererhttp://www.gjsmith.com/images/GJS-banner.gif

[Guest jase439]

Oh, put a sock in it already.

[Guest]

My last say on this....Ok, Ok, stop chearing.I went to a lawyer who deals in copyright/trademark law. I explained this mess to him. He said there is no fundamental problem in freeware authors basing their work on real life airline liveries. Unless, and only if, the airline in question chooses to object. He said until such a time as the airline does notify the person using their logo to stop doing so, THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM, per the fair use doctrine. He also pointed out that only the airline in question or their legally appointed representative have the right to pass judgement on the use of the their property or set conditions on its use. He said that for anyone else to do so was, in his humble opinion, a more serious issue than the use of the trademark to begin with. So, from the standpoint of this freeware author, I will continue to create aircraft painted in the livery of commercial airlines, UNTIL such a time as I personally receive notice from a LEGALLY APPOINTED REPRESENTATIVE of the airline, that I am not to. At that time I will stop. Period.Mike Stone

[Guest]

I concur with you Mike, When and if we receive a formal request from a representative of an airline organistation then we cease that particular work - until then all other "opinions" can/will be ignored.As a matter of interest - I also sort consultation with international copyright authorities (as part of my real world work sometimes borders on this issue) and their response was similar to the one you got in relation to fair use doctrine and ceasing only if/when requested to do so formally by a legal representative. In fact they also advised that in some circumstances related to creative artwork in an alternative media that sales (with consideration to consent requirements if highlighted) can be made. Anyway - like you I am just feed up with the issue but will continue to paint textures - particularly your aircraft if you don't mind.RegardsGarry J. Smith at http://www.gjsmith.comAircraft Texture Tinkererhttp://www.gjsmith.com/images/GJS-banner.gif

[Guest]

Ummmm.Again. I do NOT justify ANYONE copying ANYONE'S work. Please reread my post :-)Mike T.

[Guest]

Well, almost my final say.....I have a book in front of me right now. It is an HTML reference. It contains screen prints, including Netscape's logos and trademarks. I quote the book..."Netscape Communications Corporation has not authorized, sponsored, endorsed, or approved this publication and is not responsible for its content"This is immediately below the following...."Copyright 1999 Sybex Inc."Go tell Sybex they can't claim copyright ownership of the book because their work contains Netscape's logo.Hogwash.Mike Stone

[Guest]

Mike:You are 'plane' wrong. Sybex is COPYWRITING the BOOK not the logo. I assume the book had more to it besides Netscape Logos, maybe words that cannot be claimed by Netscape? The book and all that it contains inside EXCEPT THE RESPECTIVE TRADEMARKS of other companies are owned by Sybex.When you paint an aircraft, you can claim the textures (nuts, bolts, seams, dirt stains, etc all for yourself. But when you, I or anyone else claims the actual logo of the livery (including unique lettering), no way.Here is a better example: I start a website. I name it Theotheravsim.com. I use Avsim's LOGO and put it on my website exactly as is. I do not make a profit from my website. I can claim a copyright to all my unique material that I post to my website. If I go by your example, I can also claim a copyright to Avsim's logo too since it is being used for my purposes on my own website? That's hogwash!!!Just like my PeterMax Continental 777. I painted it and Peter Max said don't use it. Hell, Continental Airlines doesn't even own his work on their aircraft. It was licensed my COA from Peter Max. If I paint the livery and distribute it against his will, then my copyright will not be valid for anything more than a good chuckle as when I get sued.This is such a blatently obvious matter, I cannot see any room for debate. You can slice and bend the actual truth, but my original post stands. You use airline's logos at THEIR good graces. It is THEIRS to protect and like YOU YOURSELF said, when THEY tell you to stop, you WILL stop. In that case, what happens to YOUR copyright then? When AA slapped a cease and desist order on every one, what happened to everyone's "copyright" then? Again, this is NOT about copyrighting airline logos. This is about right and wrong. I would never copy your work and I don't expect anyone to copy my work, and so on. It is common decency that holds it's place here.Sorry, Mike, no disrespect intended, but you are wrong.Best regards, :-beerchugMike T.

[Guest]

Oh, my aching head.You are "plane" right. I am copyrighting my textures, not the airlines logo. Thank you for proving my point.Mike Stone

[Guest]

Stir stir stir stir....stink stink stink stink.Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.... *:-*

[Guest]

We'll all have to laugh about this over a beer somtime :-lolBest,Mike T.

[Guest]

I seem to recall in my short time as an AVSIM library admin, a certain person taking issue with our posting and sending some rather heartless remarks at us. (Mark, Rick, and I)Sad to see the same attitude still hard at work trying to bring people down, good job there Jeff! Keep it up. You reap what you sow.