The Changing face of flight simming

[Francois_Dumas 10]

Yes, you touch another interesting point there Jeff, that of using FS2002 (and others?) by real pilots (or students) and flight schools. It not only seems to be an increasing thing, but looking at some of the presentations at the AVSIM conference there are already quite a few VERY professional uses for (part of) the software in use for a number of years.I am referring to Boeing using it, and the US Navy among others.There are also quite a few flightschools around that start using PC based simulators nowadays and more sophisticated hardware is popping up all over the place.....That too indicates that there will clearly be a growing divide between very hard core simmers, some even professional, and the large group of occasional users, lets call them 'gamers' ;-) :-outta Francois :-wave[table border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0][tr][td valign=bottom" align="center]"At home in the wild"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:avsim.com/alaska/alaska_052.htm|Don's Alaskan Bush Charters]"Beavers Lead the Way"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:www.avsim.com/vfr_center/mainpages/vfr_flights_main_page.htm]VFR Flight Center]"Looking Good Outside"[/td][/tr][tr][td valign=top" align="center]http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/logo75b.gif[/td][td valign="top" align="left" colspan=2]http://www.fssupport.com/images/moose2.gif[/td][tr][/table]________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online![/bemail: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Guest]

I too think the death of Freeware is on hand (at least on the short road)... But that doesn't have to be a bad thing. Just as in life, "death" isn't necessarily a bad thing, its really just a transition to another state. In this case, FS addons will become more commercial, but on the flip side also must become:Free Software.Those two words embody so much (useless in my opinion) political meaning these days that I hesitate to use them in this context - but they are the future here if free works are to survive and thrive. The ideals, benefits and negatives behind the methodology are so much more than can be discussed in one post of course (just as Freeware and Commercial methodologies are).But the overriding and all important benefits that it can end up bringing to the "Freeware" market for flight addons is clear: teamwork, organization and compartmentalization. As you all so correctly state, the current and future addons are becoming too complex for all but an extreme few singular developer to tackle - if the project is to take advantage of all complex systems and work that is needed for a "high end" work.Complexity is *not* the death of free works however, as has been proven time and again the past twenty years in the computer industry. Lack of teamwork, organization and compartmentalization is. Some of the most complex and highly technical projects in the software industry today are maintained and thrive under a Free Software banner. Why? Again I'll state it: Teamwork, organization and compartmentalization. The lack of those three aspects in any large manner are what is slowly killing the Freeware market in the FS scene - and will continue to do so at a much more rapid pace as time progresses here. Its simply a fact of software development life as the environment it thrives in matures. Its nothing to be sad about however.As you all state, its simply a matter of time before projects get so large that they can't be handled by even a private group of freeware developers. Once that happens, either they quit completely and focus on less complex aspects of FS, *or*, a set of groups organize and take advantage of the top notch Free Software organization tools (such as medium scale bug trackers, source control tools with organized management frameworks, etc). These are the foundations that are missing today in the mindset of many FS addon developers. With them, complex projects become manageable (and fun!) and competitive again - and thrive if in the right environment. Without them large, complex projects simply become unwieldy for all but the largest of commercial organizations (theres that all important word again). Until some bold group tackles a Free Software project and succeeds by virtue of its benefits, other developers will continue to doubt the viability of such a model (unless they are developers outside of the tiny FS market and have seen the model work before).As Peter points out as well, specific FS specialized Tools are indeed the lacking catalyst to a lot of this. And, unfortunately, a ton of the blame here rests on Microsoft's shoulders. As FS has advanced and progressed in its complexity and realism, the tools used to access this functionality have remained in the stone ages. Literally. So much of FS's innards are based upon arcane foundations laid for it over twenty years ago. But worse, the Tools used to access this functionality has as well. This *can* be handled ok as long as a vendor keeps up with the modernization of the Tools used to access complex or arcane functionality and the vendor takes an active and energetic role in documentation (Microsoft Windows itself is a *PRIME* example here). However, that has not happened in Flight Simulators case beyond a few isolated areas. While tiny steps are taken by Microsoft in each FS release to help developers in small areas, a vast array of functionality is still locked behind a wall of ancient and undocumented interfaces and methodology - and worse, Tools.It may indeed take a whole new flight platform at some point in the future to change all this. Fly! might have been just such a beast (as its inner design was brilliant in almost all end-user-developer areas - if, and understandably, extremely immature), but alas it has withered on the publisher vine. If Microsoft doesn't wake up to this massive problem at some point in their own sim and spend a *lot* more time on developing end-user developer Tools that match the ease of use developers today expect and depend upon, well... I guess the market will decide.Just my two cents,Elrond"A musician without the RIAA, is like a fish without a bicycle."

[Guest]

I think you're dead right. It's already become too hard for the hobby developer to produce a complete model.However I think there is another group of FS users who use the sim in a different way.I'm an aircraft enthusiast who isn't particularly interested in being a pilot. I like aircraft from a designers point of view.The more FS gets to be like watching real video footage, the more interesting it is to me.But I'd be quite happy to have an FS pilot to fly my models for me while I go outside & have a look at the aeroplane.For me, having to deal with piloting can sometimes be a bit of a pain.Why not go to the airport & watch?Well I'm usually interested in aircraft that you can't see flying anymore. Not even on video.As long as I have an outside view, then I've always got the same need for good 3D aircraft models, panel or not.David Maltby

[Guest]

I read these boards and tend to do some analysis myself. I also design scenery, and have done so for about 6 years.I think we become biased in our viewpoints by the people that make themselves heard, and we often lose sight of the silent majority. One result of these boards is it provides a new avenue for celebrity. With the element of convenience and annonymity, celebrity is now available in an exciting new form, and perhaps folks that were not in a position for such notice can now FINALLY get their turn.Notice the name recognition and defference shown to highly visible designers, people like Mike Stone and Anniette, and their detractors, the antagonists of the boards. Several times these folks in specific have been offended and 'officially' quit, and then get talked back by adoring fans. Same with Steve Small, Ron Friemuth, and likely others. There is an otherworldliness about this that simply doesn't impact or involve a huge number of people, many folks I know personally continue to design quite happily, and really don't ever receive nearly the level of praise, or the level of discontent that these folks receive. My sense is that these boards have taken on a bit of a soap opera quality, which really transcends the act of design, and enters into more the level of relationships...both positive and negative. another element that bears notice is the number of people who pretend to be involved in a commercial enterprise. The anonymity of these boards reduces the liklihood that such claims will be challenged, one example is a kid named Alex, who has regularly claimed to be CEO of his company, and claimed to be the Vice President of scenery, claims to be "hiring", and yet he doesn't have any more of a company than I had as a kid playing "office". He's really a beginning designer, but enjoys the fantasy. I finally got him to talk to me as Alex, and my sense is he's probably a likeable kid who's having fun. You may think I'm being negative, not so...these fantasies, whether about fame as a superstar, or fame as a CEO appear quite harmless, although the first may drive a person into real life stress levels not to be desired. No, I don't condemn anyone, and having folk hero status does NOT detract from the quality of Mike Stone's work or the work of any of the other folks I named. My only point is that their publicity is not a valid reflection of the condition of 'freeware'. so many times I've read that freeware is dead, which is such a silly statement with the library constantly being added too. What the writer usually means is a name they've grown familier with (one of their "heros") decided to move on. Are there more "heros" being noticed on the internet these days than there was in the days of fsforum on compuserve...perhaps.I can tell you that the hardcore scenery designers commune regularly in scenery design forum. Here at Avsim, the nature of the folks there is pretty serious, people interested in technical design skills, and hero worship is almost non-existant. Certainly mutual respect is real, but not hero worship. We rarely see any of the issues that appear on this board, folks receiving crank emails, or being disrespected, and we also are without the defference and adjulation that you can find on this board. And I doubt anyone that is a regular contributer to the scenery design forum is concerned that freeware scenery design is dying! We never consider dire consequences from bad commercial products...well maybe almost never! It like we're a bit too interested in the techniques that either we or our friends are discovering to bother with that kind of stuff. So, I think worrys about the changing face of things is really more of the pseudo-social-soap opera virtual society that has sprung up amongst folks that are having a lot of fun serving this community of folks as "hero", "badguy", "admirer", "CEO", and lots of other "virtual titles" available to folks that otherwise are working men and women, or school aged people, dreaming and enjoying a measure of fantasy.But actually being concerned about losing freeware scenery and airplanes...not a problem...just watch the library. When we stop having files uploaded, that's when to discuss a problem.With best intentions,Bob BernsteinEdmonds, Wa.

[Guest Paul_W]

Bob, I think you are so very right in many of your observations. While this current thread involves a serious, informed and worthwhile discussion, there have been so many others that reflect many of the dynamics you've identified above. It's good to be reminded of that by someone with an outsider's perspective. Thanks.

[Guest Dakota]

I think you are correct, no doubt. But that is what the true "simulation experience" is all about! It is just not the software that is progressing to this level, but the hardware too. Trying to get more and more like the real thing in your own home. How many of us, if the price was reasonable would not love to have a full motion simulator. The only question is how far are we as the hobbiest willing to take this- the market will follow what the customer is willing to spend. From all indications, it looks like we are willing to spend plenty for our hobby, when you see all the products currently for sale. To this end, I not only see specialists making different aspects of the planes and the simulator, but we ourselves, as pilots will become specialized. We won't have the time, money or resources to do it all. We will have to decide if we we want to specialize in GA, commuter, Helicopter or Heavy Aircraft simulation and customize our systems and training to maximize the realistic experience for one of those.Welcome to the future of virtual avaition!

[Guest]

Hey Peter! Don't worry. It'll come back. It always does.When one looks at history, a regular precursor of change is a state of stasis, a plateau phase. When Heisenberg was considering becoming a student of physics, he was told by one of the autorities of the time (second half of XIX th century), that physics was a finished field. Maxwell had explained everything, except for a couple of discrepancies...

[Guest Moghdad]

It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine.Bring it on. I'm willing to pay the price for quality, full featured aircraft. Nothing less is worth the time download time. Honestly, I'm tired of "freeware culture" and the incessant whining that accompanies it.

[Guest]

Honestly, I'm tired of the "Moghdad culture" and the incessant whining that accompanies it. Your post in this great thread being a prime example.Take care,Elrond"A musician without the RIAA, is like a fish without a bicycle."

[Guest]

Now that's hitting the old nail right on the head! tools sir, better tools the number of times one has to "re-invent" the weel will hurtour favorate pass time. Even to "do" scenery to the level that peoplenow demand is becoming harder sir as there is NO intergrated editorfor this sim (2002) I an sorry but if a small company like tri can do it the people over in Redmond bloody well can as well. With a truly intergrated editor people can concentrate on the task at handADDING to the core product instead of having to re-invent to above weel. Dan Martin

[Guest]

ElrondOne of the most difficult parts of aircraft creation is the flight model.The current flight engine is highly complex and incompleteI would love to see a flight model interface where you can load all the parameters easely of the aircraft you are building and then the utility creates a basic airfile for you.A second in flight interface would then allow you to make in flight changes using sliders for all the controls and allowing you to build in the required feel.fly! had a useful way of adding your airport by placing buildings from a stock selection directly onto your scenery.I know very little about scenery creation but would love to make my own home field with correctly placed trees hedges, buildings etc.MSFS is a creative invironment. As the programme capability becomes more complex MS will have to start looking at making these creative possibilities more user friendly, quick and easy.Peter