Air Canada/Jazz/Tango/Zip...what?

[ejoiner 21]

Just a quick question....what are all the different air canada brands nowadays and what markets do they serve? I see Tango, Jazz, Zip, etc...what are they?Eric

[Guest]

Hello,Tango is a nofrills airline..that belongs to Air Canada...was created to compete with Canjet,and westjet...and canada 3000 and Royal.....We know what happenned to the last 2...Jazz is a grouping of all the regionals(Air Nova,Air Alliance,Air Ontario,Air BC)ZIP is definately an Air Canada version of WESTJET targeted to compete with them...I think it's close...please somebody correct me if i'm wrongRichard CYHZ

[ejoiner 21]

Do they share the same pilot base and union?Interesting tactic to create multiple brands within the same corporate group to compete in segments. Im really surprised somebody like Delta or American hasnt tried that tactic to slice into Southwest or JetBlue.Eric

[MikeAdamo 51]

Hi Eric,As some have already answered, I'll toss some more info into the ring:Tango - Long haul no frills arm of Air Canada. Unlike Zip and Jazz, Tango has regular scheduled direct flights between Vancouver and Montreal (thus the use of the term "long haul"). Difference between a Tango long haul flight and a main line Air Canada flight is passengers have to purchase drinks and pay for the use of head-sets for audio/video and there is no meal service.Areas they serve:Across Canada and some holiday destinations in the US.Jazz - With the merge of Air Canada and Canadian, the Regional Airline base between the two meant that there would be several regional airlines running independant of each other so from a management perspective, merging them all into one group made more sense.Areas they serve:Main West Coast hubs in Calgary and Vancouver, Main East Coast hubs in Toronto, Montreal and Halifax.here's a link to their route map Route Map]Zip - When Air Canada took over Canadian it left a void in Western Canada where there were really only 2 options if you wanted to fly any where further than Saskatoon, Air Canada or Westjet. Not good from a travellers perspective! Part of the deal between Air Canada and Canadian was that Air Canada would start up a "western based" airline to bring an additional option to travellers in the western provinces. Zip wasn't only brought online to compete directly with Westjet but to offer another choice for travel. Zip currently is only serving from Winnipeg west.Areas they serve:[/bMain hub Calgary serving Calgary, Vancouver, Edmonton and WinnipegWhile they are all supposed to run independant of each other, you can still collect Air Canada Aeroplan miles on either Tango, Zip or Jazz. At the end of the day, they may have different names and different paint schemes but they all fall under the same umbrella, Air Canada.Hope this helped!Mikehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/madamo/boeingsig.jpg

[Guest]

>Interesting tactic to create multiple brands within the same >corporate group to compete in segments. Im really surprised >somebody like Delta or American hasnt tried that tactic to >slice into Southwest or JetBlue. Some already have. Remember the disaster known as Metrojet? That was USAirways attempt to create a "Southwest" of their own. Those planes are now planted firmly in the desert someplace. Delta recently annonced plans to try to do this. I think American's agreement with their unions would preclude them from trying.

[ejoiner 21]

Mike, thanks for the awesome answer! Seems like a well thought out plan...is Air Canada profitable? Are any of the subsidiaries?Eric

[MikeAdamo 51]

Hey Eric,Is Air Canada profitable? That's a question I'll leave to the analysts to argue over :-) Zip is too new to expect a profit but from what I read in the newspaper last week, their loads are increasing and they should be (optomistically) on par with Westjet (71% load per flight) by the second quarter of next year. So they say!As far as the other guys, time will really tell :-)Mikehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/madamo/boeingsig.jpg

[ejoiner 21]

Thanks Mike.Just wondered because the American airlines are taking such a bath right now and the only carriers making money are the discounters. Its interesting to see the different strategies carriers use.Eric

[Guest mikehaska]

Why aren't other airlines using this strategy? Simple answer- unions. When Air Canada came out with the Tango idea, the unions made it crystal clear that wages would not be cut, and no staff would be laid off. Therefore, Tango is operating with the same crews as standard Air Canada flights. Along with the fact they are using the same aircraft, same routes, and same support services as the mainlines means their overhead is about the same as a standard Air Canada flight. However, their fares are lower. So they are charging far less for a product that is costing them the same as the regular priced version. I think an economist needs to explain to me how that makes good economic sense.Secondly, Air Canada did a huge campaign to rebrand their regionals as "Jazz". I work in marketing myself, so I can assure you this was no simple or inexpensive undertaking. Rather, it was a hugly expensive endeavor. I honestly think it was a good idea to unify all the different brands under one banner. However, the second phase of the plan is to sell this division. There has been a lot of debate as to if it would be smart to buy this group, as the airline feeds directly into Air Canada's routes, and would probably not be profitable on it's own.Then we move on to Zip, the airline based in Calgary directly designed to compete with Westjet. This will turn out to be a bad decision. They hired Steve Smith because he previously worked at Westjet. They thought they were getting a great manager with the inside edge used at Westjet. However, the reason they got Steve was because he was fired from Westjet because he was completely wrong for the company. He wasn't easy going, a team player, or all for the customer. Bad move! Secondly, Zip uses non-unionized flight crews. This is a major sticking point, and the unions have made it well known that if Air Canada starts shutting down mainline routes and transferring them to Zip, they would have a strike on their hands. And that would be crippling to the Canadian aviation industry as well as Air Canada. As well, there is a strong sense of support for Westjet in western Canada. They are the airline that saved us when Air Canada could care less about service or fares here. If it wasn't for them, Air Canada would not be trying any of these measures.Finally (phew!) we come to Elite, Air Canada's executive class airline. It uses a320s with far fewer seats to fly business travellers in very comfortable planes to business destinations. They plan to fly these passengers using fares no larger than business class fares on standard planes. However, they have far fewer seats to make money on. As well, because these planes are specially modified, they cannot be used on nights and weekends, when business travellers are not flying. So you have (again) huge overhead with little income. This is such a huge blunder I'm thinking Air Canada made a mistake on their press release, because someone would have to be smoking some heavy crack to think up such a stupid idea.Now, you may think with my diatribe, I'm against Air Canada, that's simply not true. I think Air Canada is a great airline, but they are making some huge changes very quickly to try to see some profits. I honestly believe that in the end, these will come back to haunt them for the reasons listed above.Thanks for reading (Assuming you didn't skim down to this paragraph!) :-)

[ejoiner 21]

Well...Even with the unions, there are a number of ways to achieve efficiencies. Such as using single types of airplanes. JetBlue is an Airbus firm while Southwest is a Boeing 737 company. Helps on Pilot training requirements and staffing. Also economies on turn times, ticketing methods, routes, negotiated gates and take off priorities, computer system efficiencies. etc. Just think...Air Canada is HUGE. if each lesser brand can use the Air Canada computer system without having to build its own, that alone is a major plus.Unions are a cost of business in free societies. Best way to manage the labor cost is to rationalize it with technology. Eventually there needs to be an economic balance between well paid people doing skilled jobs and techology doing repetitive jobs. Seems these companies are well positioned to leverage both market segments and economies of scale. Eric

[ejoiner 21]

I will seriously disagree with you on the value of the Elite brand.I fly at least once a week somewhere. I've done as of this week...50 segments on Delta, 20 segments on Continental, 10 segments on America West, 6 international flights on United, 3 Intl segments on Singapore and 3 international segments on Delta.Every single one of those was upgraded to biz or first class because Im one of those folks who books short notice long distance flights. If I can get a good seat, with good service and just a little bit of TLC on one of these trips, Im that much more effective on arrival.Trust me, I'll work hard to support an airline that works hard to cater to my needs. Now if they could only pass directly to the front of the take off line...Eric

[Guest mikehaska]

Eric, I agree that the idea of Elite sounds good for business travellers, but it's a terrible idea for the airline. Imagine two aircraft, one a standard Air Canada a320, and one an Elite a320. One has 24 business class, and 116 standard seats. During "business hours", when the business travellers are flying, the first class section is full of full paying passengers and people who bumped up to the section. However, this aircraft can be used at any time of day, during weekends or holidays too. During those times, the business cabin may be empty, but the rest of the seats are generating revenue.Now imagine Elite, with only 40 seats. This aircraft will only be making money during business hours, and will need to be full to make money. The pilots are still paid their usual rate. The flight attendants will be paid the same. The ground crew will be paid the same too (you get paid the same whether you load 40 bags or 140 bags). So now you have a specially modified fleet that can only be flow monday to friday, 9-5, sitting idle the rest of the time.It's simply poor economic sense.