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Ti4600 vs 9700 Pro: who's the image quality king in FS

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Again, you are making leaps in this argument based on your beliefs rather than hard data. The article you posted was composed PRIOR to the benchmarks I posted, so I suppose direct evidence, suggesting that the subsequent NV30 benchmarks are not legitimate, does not exist.Based on you line of reasoning, the AMD Clawhammer should have been released on time this Fall since Anantech and Tomshareware had articles and pictures of a that chip up and running in February of 2002. However, that chip won't be released until after March of 2003, over a year later. That is an example of a piece of hardware that was up and running months before the NV30 and will not be released months after the NV30. But, rational debate won't win out on this sort of argument, only hard data will - because this kind of discussion could go on and on. I have presented hard data, and you have presented nothing but supposition.The Anantech article and discussion was made PRIOR to the NV30 benchmarks is simply and educated guess. Obviously, the NV30 benchmarks posted AFTER the article you referenced do not support either your or their supposition. Talk and rumor are just that, talk and rumor Benchmarks are benchmarks and are the litmus test of the computing hardware world.I'll state it again in clear language:Please find one piece of DIRECT evidence suggesting that the NV30 benchmarks posted on Anandtech.com are not legitimate. Thanks,Robbie

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Why don't you prove that the benchmarks are real? Your benchmarks are not hard data; anyone can make a graph and write "NV30" on it.Why don't you explain how a chip with only 10M more transistors can perform twice as fast as the 9700?


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There is no magic number that says that you have to have wait exactly four weeks to prepare a chip for production. That was just a point made in reference to an approximate time in the article. There areengineering samples of the chips well before they are mass produced. Again the engineering sample of the AMD Hammer was available back in February of 2002 and that chip won't be mass produced until March of 2002.In the following article, they mention that the NV30 was ALREADY taped out and that article was written back on August 14th almost a week prior to the benchmarks I provided through Anandtech.comhttp://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1678&p=2In the article you referred me to, they had the chip up and running!In their words, "The IKOS lab was our next stop, where we got to see NV30 running..." In fact, Anandtech wanted to run gaming benchmarks but they did not want to intrude, as noted in the article.

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I don't see how I can prove the benchmarks are real other than to go to Tawain myself. If I had to do that sort of thing every time I saw a benchmark, or a link to a benchmark posted on sites I considered legitimate, then I could never believe anything.The facts are that Benchmarks were provided though a link on Anandtech.com and that it was well within the timelines provided to have a legitimate NV30 up and running. See my above posts.It is your opinion that the link provided on Anandtech.com is not legitimate, but I assume it is - since it is still there. You mentioned earlier that the NV30 benchmarks provided were simply based on rumor based on something you read, but when pushed, you were not able to provide evidence that that was the case.>Why don't you explain how a chip with only 10M more transistors can >perform twice as fast as the 9700?ANSWER:The same way I can explain that there are currently Athlon chips running at over twice the speed of older Athlon chips with the SAME number of transistors. I am sure you can make the deduction, or I hope you can!

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The reason there are Athlon chips that runs at over twice the speed of older ones, is because the clockspeed has been increased.The NV30 will run at about 400 MHz, which is only 75MHz faster than the R300.Just because the link is still there doesn't mean it's legit. :)Also you haven't answered where on Anandtech you saw the link. If it was slammed up on the frontpage or if it was hidden in the discussion forums...I'm afraid we're getting nowhere. I can't seem to find out where I read that the benchmarks are fake, and I don't think there's anything you can do to prove to me that the benchmarks are legit.Becausse I simply think they were posted to early for anyone to have a working NV30 chip, and I also think the results are way to high to be real.All we can do is wait and see how the NV30 performs. When it's actually out, we'll know how it performs. Until then, it's all speculation.But when it's released, remember what I told you about its performance :-lol:-beerchug


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For what it's worth, I found another site with the same graphs:http://zive.cpress.cz/H/PCtuning/AR.asp?AR...D=1&EXPS=&EXPA=That was posted 6.8. 2002, or one day before the confirmed date of tapeout. It's in Czech though, so I have not idea if they say anything about the benchmark results in the text. Using TranExp.com translator, the title of the page with the benchmarks is translated into "What bude achievement NV30?" which doesn't tell much...


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>The reason there are Athlon chips that runs at over twice the speed >of older ones, is because the clockspeed has been increased.You above point is circular. Why does one chip run faster than another? Because the clockspeed has been increased. Why has the clockspeed been increased? Because the chip runs over twice as fast.Again, you argument about the number of transistors and benchmark results does not hold true in all cases. Remember the Cyrix 333Mhz processor? It had more transistors than than the equivalent Pentium 2 333Mhz but the Pentium 2 ran over twice as fast on Direct3D benchmarks. Why, because the Pentium 2 had more transistors running floating point calculations.>Also you haven't answered where on Anandtech you saw the link. If it >was slammed up on the frontpage or if it was hidden in the >discussion forums...I didn't know you asked, but here it is-http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.html?i=17067&t=wn>I'm afraid we're getting nowhere. I can't seem to find out where I >read that the benchmarks are fake, and I don't think there's >anything you can do to prove to me that the benchmarks are legit.I guess you must have made it up then. Based on your line of reasoning, that is a legitimate way to argue.>Becausse I simply think they were posted to early for anyone to have >a working NV30 chip, and I also think the results are way to high to >be real.Again, that's your opinion with nothing to back it up.>All we can do is wait and see how the NV30 performs. When it's >actually out, we'll know how it performs. Until then, it's all >speculation.>But when it's released, remember what I told you about its >performanceAgain, I posted benchmarks earlier today that were linked on a legitimate site. See above.Have a good evening. We'll continue this tomorrow if you'd like.Rob

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So the link is on the news section of Anandtech, but they don't exactly say they are legit. They say "PCPop has posted some benchmarks of....." so it's no guarantee that they are legit."Again, that's your opinion with nothing to back it up."Not only my opinion. The general opinion on most messageboards was that the benchmarks were fake, and then someone posted a link that proved that they were fake. I haven't found that link.Though I didn't find that particular link, I found some other information of interest.Here's an interesting thread in the Anandtech forum:http://forums.anandtech.com/arcmessageview...y&keyword1=nv30Note this reply:"I posted a translation in the video forum if you want to read it. The graphs are dated August 6 and are from here: http://zive.cpress.cz/H/PCtuning/AR.asp?AR...D=3&EXPS=&EXPA= They seem to just be estimates and not benchmarks. "So I'm not the only one who claims that those are just projected results based on expected hardware specs. Also, the actual graphs are dated Aug. 6, as he points out. It's a shame none of us speak Czech, because they probably explain what the results are on the site. But that's whre the graphs are actually from. PCPop were not the first ones to have the graphs. You can see on the PCPop graphs, that they have the name "PC Tuning" on them. That's the name of the hardware site where they are taken from.I'll once again link to this Anandtech article:http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1678&p=1, and in particular, this:"The first NV30 silicon taped-out last week, this is no less than three months behind schedule."The article was posted August 14th, so "last week", like I said before, must be after (or possibly on) the 6th.If the NV30 taped-out on the 6th at the very earliest (more likely later that week), how could a fully working board have reached the Czech hardware site on the 6th of August for them to benchmark?I mean, they must have finished working on the chip in Taiwan early morning, slapped it onto a circuit board in a matter of minutes, and flown it from Taiwan to Prague in a supersonic jet for it to reach the site in time for them to post benchmark results on the same day.If Nvidia had just recieved their first fully working chip, do you think the first thing they would do, would be to send it to a Czech hardware site for them to post benchmark results?


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I suspect what happened is that once the chip was off the table and in a working sample board, they ran a few bench marks, got excited about the results, and one of the guys sent it to his buddy, and from there it leaked.Here's some more information about this card:http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5833Interesting!

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Yeah it will need 1 GHz DDR-II memory to compete with the 9700, because of the narrower memory bus compared to the 9700.It's higly unlikely that benchmark results would be leaked the very same day that the chip taped out.Actually it's almost completely impossible, and here's why:"After the verification process is complete and the layout is done then comes the elusive tape-out. This is the preparation of everything necessary to be sent out to the foundry for actual production of the chip. About 4 weeks later you get your first chip or A0 silicon as it is often referred to as."http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1711&p=3Fact1: It takes four weeks (another article said two weeks) from tape-out to having an actual working chip.Fact2: The benchmark results were posted on the same day as the chip taped-out


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A civil debate on AVSIM! Very refreshing after reading some of the threads last week. Thanks guys for the informative debate. I wish they were all like this. Please proceed! Here's to ya'!:-beerchug Mark

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Narrower bus by half but pumped out in quad speed, and that's before the fact that the chip will be running at over twice speed of the 9700. It's gonna be burn baby burn!!! "This is the preparation of everything necessary to be sent out to the foundry for actual production of the chip."The foundry refers the castings of chips for mass production. The castings are made by founding so that they can take the original chip, cast it, and mass produce it. I see where you are confused. That was never a question in my mind. For example, they won't have the AMD Hammer founded until late this month for the engineering samples to be sent out as they are planning by the end of December. However, they had a working Hammer back in February 2002.Again, I suspect those benchmarks were leaked. Unfortunately it won't help framerates much it will help to make sure you don't lose any by turning up the options in Fs2002.

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A civil debate...yes....but also a very silly discussion. Does anyone really think the nVidia NV30 will be twice as fast as a Radeon 9700? It's certainly not logical onclusion for a number of reasons I don't particularly care to get into right now.And if you read this thread in conjunction with the thread on the "Benefits of Anistrophic Filtering" in the Screenshots forum you'd see that Robbie is certainly not as informed as he suggests.

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Hey Stiffy,If you are not careful, you are going to dribble all over yourself. So without looking like a complete idiot, why don't you fill us in on some of that logic of yours?It is not unreasonable to think that the NV30 will best the 9700 X2 is some benchmarks.Currently my card does not utilize anistrophic filtering, so I was going to try and 1> see what it looks like when implimented in FS2002 and 2> What kind of card I should invest in before upgrading both my CPU and video card if I decide to do those things.So homey, if you are feeling froggy, jump on in on this discussion. I'm willing to discuss this or any other topic on any level you choose.

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Tape-out refers to getting the first silicon, called A0. It has nothing to do with mass-production. In fact, the NV30 has probably still not started to be mass produced. They're still making some last-minute tweaks and bugfixes. I expect mass-production of NV30 to start about one month from now at the earliest.From tape-out to getting the first chip, takes two to four weeks. I was not aware that it took that long, but that's what I read. So, there did not exist a working NV30 chip at the time that those benchmarks were published. Simple as that. How can you benchmark something that doesn't exist?It's not logical to think that the NV30 will run at over 650MHz (x2 R9700 speed). The heat production and power requirements for a 120M transistor chip would be staggering, even on the .13 micron process. 400 MHz is a much more realistic speed, but it could be even lower. Especially if the yield is poor, they may have to market a "normal" NV30 running at maybe 320-350 MHz, and a NV30 "Ultra" running at about 400 MHz. Not pretty, but better than having to throw away half of your NV30 chips.I'm not going to get into the DDR-II deal too much because I'm not very informed on the subject. Basically, provided it will use a 128-bit memory bus, the card will either have 16GB/s of memory bandwidth or 32GB/s.There seem to be split opinions on how DDR-II memory actually performs compared to DDR. Some claim that the speed is only doubled internally, and externally it still provides the same memory bandwidth as DDR, clock for clock. That would be because the data width has beeen halved, while the internal frequency has doubled. That is what the whitepapers I've read show. So what's the benefit of DDR-II you may ask? Basically it is easier to crank DDR-II chips up to a higher clockspeed. DDR-II memory may also actually be cheaper than DDR memory.Others claim it does indeed provide double the bandwidth of DDR. But then, what is the purpose of QDR, if DDR-II already provides twice the bandwidth of DDR?


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