A question about Air Holland...

[Guest Toni Rauch]

Can anyone from Holland (or surrounding areas) please confirm what aircraft types Air Holland operates.Their web site suggests they only have two Boeing 757s, although a 767 is mentioned. Maybe their site is out of date...Do they fly Boeing 737s too?ThanksToni.

[JRR 9]

Air Holland flies with the 757's and one 767-300, but the 767-300 is now flying for Air Gabon. Air Holland flew with the 737-300 until 1999 when they went bankrupt.regards,Jasper http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3de267cd2e0b7ebb.gifhttp://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3de2665428878859.jpg

[Guest Toni Rauch]

Thanks JasperAfter their bankrupcy, did they simply re-form or are they now part of/owned by a larger airline?RegardsToni.

[JRR 9]

After their bankrupcy in 1999, they reformed in 2001. But I'm not 100% up to date about the structure of the airline. I know they had some kind of cooperation with VG/Delsey Airlines, but that airline is bankrupt also now.Jasper http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3de267cd2e0b7ebb.gifhttp://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3de2665428878859.jpg

[Guest Toni Rauch]

Thanks again, Jasper.Either way, am I right in assuming that any 737 appearing with their livery is either historic or fictitious, as they certainly don't fly them now?RegardsToni.

[JRR 9]

Ahh I think you're pointing at the new Ariane 737-300 in the Air Holland livery. Yes the newest livery on the 737 is a nonsense livery and has never existed. The newest paintscheme is only used on the 757's.Jasper http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3de267cd2e0b7ebb.gifhttp://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3de2665428878859.jpg

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"....Either way, am I right in assuming that any 737 appearing with their livery is either historic or fictitious, as they certainly don't fly them now?...."I did a search on airliners.net, and found no Air Holland 737 pics after late '99.... But it sure is a nice livery! One livery I've also seen a lot of (and would pay for if it were done to photoreal standards) is AirCal, which was absorbed by American. I flew AirCal quite often in the mid 80's--my first 737-300 flight was on an AirCal aircraft. They used to offer an incredible deal--2 nt. in Reno at Harrahs, a show, and R/T airfare from SFO for around $120.00. Basically, they were giving away the airfare...There's a fair amount of interest for historical liveries.... PSA is a popular one. I don't know which would be the most popular on the other side of the pond....

[Guest]

John, I dont see how this can be taken as historical, more a blatent utter disregard and contempt for all the people using FS today. Once again we see Mr. T being as pathetic as ever.I've not had too much to say regarding Mr Tishy, I've been waiting for him to create his own ridiculous gaff's and here we are, like a lamb to the slaughter.This smacks of desperation to gain the alleged populist sale without even researching the subject matter and a total disregard for facts. There again with what I have seen recently it does not surprise me in the least. I guess I'll just sit back and wait for the threats to land in my inbox.To Mr. Tishy, I thought Les Dennis was losing it, how is he these days ? Off topic but...If I was an airline executive I would ban Tishy from repainting my livery, every one he has made a "showcase" of, like him has been plauged with financial problems, talk about a bad omen. Perhaps if he paid his liscence fee's for trademark and copyright use and stopped encouraging people to be party to copyright theft ? After all I remember him saying "I would never not...without permission"George

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"I dont see how this can be taken as historical, more a blatent utter disregard and contempt for all the people using FS today. Once again we see Mr. T being as pathetic as ever."Huh? It's a nice livery! What difference does it make whether it's an active airline or not? If someone wants to buy it, let them! In my opinion, your statement borders on being intentionally defamatory, more than anything elseTo be quite honest, I was tring to direct my reply away from Toni's regular theme--Ariane bashing.If someone wants to buy Air Holland, and someone is willing to sell it, it is none of our business whether it is a current airline, or a historical livery, whatever.... That's between the buyer and the seller. The product doesn't have to pass a litmus test. Hey, if you want to be technical, the UAL livery may soon become historical. Should Ariane pull it then? I am not ashamed to say I purchased the United livery from Ariane. For all the arguments, it is still the only 737 sold with a dynamic, photoreal wing view. And it's been argued about over and over, and often hinted that the customers know less about what they want than the Ariane bashers. I am under the impression both you and Toni are losing the moral high ground here. This thread is another thinly disguised effort at Ariane, and Ariane customer bashing. Truth be told, Tom E. has posted some free repaints that will be online soon. Adding more value to the product, IMHO. Is this a turnaround of my opinion of Ariane? I guess you could say it is. I certainly feel on more stable ground, morally as an Ariane customer, than those who seek flimsy excuses like this thread's focus to bash them.-John

[Guest]

Hold on a minute here Mr. Ci."customer bashing" Where ? I've never bashed customers. It's very good if Tom is repainting, but what about the threats Tom recieved only for Tishy to realise what a gaff he'd made there ? For the record, I've never said dont buy, I have said buy at your peril,at the time a justified comment. For you to make a comment like I'm not ashamed seems to me somewhat odd considering I've never asked are you ashamed. Believe me I'm not a stage hypnotist, who sits sticking pins in effigies of all Tishy's customers or stares into my computer screen locked on to Tishy's site transmitting thoughts. I do find the factual actions of people recieving e mails revoking a liscence to use because you've called me names a bit pathetic realy dont you ? I dont see making people aware of such actions or horrendous behaviour "bashing". Perhaps you should consider your own position, i.e. your "bashing" of any body who has anything "bashing" to say regarding Tishy.If that's the case consider yourself "bashed".Basher Abrahams

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Dear Basher (sorry, had to do it after seeing your siggy)Where I feel customers are being bashed, is when threads like these are opened supposedly to "heighten" customer awareness. We don't need no edumacation, thank you! Now, it looks like Ariane is finally delivering, with the help of the freeware community, liveries that will make it of value for old and new customers. Still, people are posting threads like this, trying to grandstand and make news where there's none to be found. Granted you didn't start the thread, but you certainly added to it. I don't believe you and Toni are Ariane consumers, are you?As far as the emails you mentioned, I haven't seen them. I'm not privy to such "facts". Not unless you're dredging up the whole P.T. affair. If you are talking about more current matters, it sounds like you are playing us for fools, holding facts not in evidence.As for your quote:"Believe me I'm not a stage hypnotist, who sits sticking pins in effigies of all Tishy's customers or stares into my computer screen locked on to Tishy's site transmitting thoughts."You are always involved in threads where Ariane is being targeted for some misdeed--sounds like you have pins at the ready. I made a point in this one, and you used it as a foothold for launching an attack against Ariane. I consider that bashing. I also consider it an insult when someone like you tells me what is a value, and what is an offense. This thread, this topic, is about someone who needs to get a life other than Ariane bashing. And if my rising in defense of Ariane makes me guilty in your eyes, than yes--I will consider myself bashed. Next time you want a civil response, tag your Ariane agenda on someone else's reply, other than my own.

[Guest]

No I'm not a customer. I was until he tried to rip my kids off, with lies, then threaten me with the pseudo legalises crap he is very fond of, form your own opinion by reading this. I cant find the first post at the moment, when I do I'll show this also, I have nothing to hide which is more than can be said by Mr. Tishma.URL: http://www.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgiForum: DCForumID8Thread Number: 18138--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Original Message--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by GeorgeAbrahams on Nov-21-01 at 06:44 AMLAST EDITED BY AUTHOR ON Nov-21-01 AT 06:46 AM (EST)Dear Mr. Tishma,In reply to your amusing piece of further dribble. I stand by everything I said, posted or commnicated. You may have forgotton, we live in a free country and have the right to express ourselves in a manner we seem fit. My post's are an expression this. As your fond of the legalise, may I remind you an article is only "defamatory" if it contains untruths. The truth is, you claim your (previously freeware FS98) products and airport series are optimised for FS2002, this, they are clearly not.In you next communication I would appreciate you sending this on Pink soft tissue with the perforations already in place.George AbrahamsLondon UKDear Mr Abrahams,We are contacting you regarding the following:We have in our possession, written, as well as e-mail evidence that you have issued containing untrue statements regarding World Air Simulation and its products. In that correspondence, you have also issued untrue statements regarding certain companies and their directors.We note that you have now made these allegations in a public place and also to private individuals and companies. In doing so, you have misrepresented the facts about these companies and also about the private individuals. You are knowingly defaming the private individuals and the companies using statements not based on facts.We would allege that is your clear intent to cause damage to these companies and to the individuals.We request that you substantiate your claims in writing, to the address that came with the product for us to repsond.If you cannot substantiate your claims, as a result of your actions and because you did not contact us first about the matters, we will immediately instruct our solicitors to take action against you regarding all threads, letters and communications to "fellow enthusiasts".You have until 6 o'clock today, 20th November 2001, to respond.Sincerely,WORLD AIRwww.worldairsim.comE-Mail: execpilot@ukonline.co.uk--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Table of contents-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,cornclose, 06:51 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,GeorgeAbrahams, 06:56 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,cornclose, 07:02 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Tom, 06:51 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,GeorgeAbrahams, 07:01 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,N555KK, 08:16 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Scylla, 09:03 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Scott Campbell, 09:09 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Danske, 10:07 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,jcouder, 10:54 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,ScottB, 10:58 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Danske, 11:49 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Garvin, 11:13 AM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,jgm, 05:42 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,CFAOA, 12:54 PM, Nov-21-01 Guys, please be careful,Scylla, 01:24 PM, Nov-21-01 Please read,GeorgeAbrahams, 04:26 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Guys, please be careful,Garvin, 04:56 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: What a childs..,Johan_Dees, 02:32 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Aquafx, 03:10 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,REDROO13, 03:40 PM, Nov-21-01 Reading the fine print of this application ...,DSandberg, 08:38 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,boley, 04:04 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Tom, 04:15 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,chrisjake, 05:23 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,jrsky75, 05:56 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Tom, 06:00 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,jrsky75, 06:03 PM, Nov-21-01 The Grinch that stole Flight Sim.....,MikeAdamo, 06:46 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: The Grinch that stole Flight Sim.....,phil, 09:45 PM, Nov-21-01 YES!! Tishma keeps his record alive!!,wichita, 08:19 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: YES!! Tishma keeps his record alive!!,Tom, 08:34 PM, Nov-21-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Innoka, 02:40 AM, Nov-22-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Phineas, 03:26 AM, Nov-22-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,cornclose, 03:56 AM, Nov-22-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,Phineas, 04:11 AM, Nov-22-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,GeorgeAbrahams, 11:34 AM, Nov-22-01 RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply.,DarrenUK, 02:09 PM, Nov-22-01 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Messages in this discussion-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by cornclose on Nov-21-01 at 06:51 AMGeorge,What posts are they referring to ??Chris E --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by GeorgeAbrahams on Nov-21-01 at 06:56 AMhttp://www.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...rum=DCForumID50 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by cornclose on Nov-21-01 at 07:02 AMOh, that one. They are obviously more sanctimonious than I thought.Chris E --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by Tom on Nov-21-01 at 06:51 AMWell George, I guess that provides an answer to my email sent to you just 10 or so minutes ago... Tom AllensworthAVSIM Online --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by GeorgeAbrahams on Nov-21-01 at 07:01 AMThanks Tom, I read the mail and have replied with my thoughts.George --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by N555KK on Nov-21-01 at 08:16 AMBoy, good thing Microsoft has thicker skin .... how can they handle all the complaints about FS2K2 so well (?). I'll tell you how they can: their product is GOOD one! Microsoft has no reason to be "testy". By the way, "GREAT FLIGHT SIM, again, MICROSOFT! Keep up the great work, and I'll be here waiting for the next release!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by Scylla on Nov-21-01 at 09:03 AMI would STRONGLY recommend no-one adds their comments to this thread.Administrator, I would urge you to close and remove this and any associated threads. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by Scott Campbell on Nov-21-01 at 09:09 AMWhy?Cheers,--ScottFlightSim Flight Deck Author Of ACLoader: Aircraft Loading and Revenue for FS2K2, FS2K and FS98 and co-creator of FLTCRW, briefings and checklists moduleadd-on for Radar Contact --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by Danske on Nov-21-01 at 10:07 AMHi kidsHere is one from me RegardsFlemming --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by jcouder on Nov-21-01 at 10:54 AMIf you ask me, Tishma was invented by Avsim to make this forum livelier --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by ScottB on Nov-21-01 at 10:58 AM>If you ask me, Tishma was invented by Avsim to make >this forum livelier Yeah, as the saying goes, "You can't make this kind of stuff up." Scott BrazellAVSIM OnlineForums Manager --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by Danske on Nov-21-01 at 11:49 AMWe need an emotion icon for Megalomania ?Here is my suggestion :Swelled head Flemming--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by Garvin on Nov-21-01 at 11:13 AMGeorge, it was discussed about two years ago or whenever it was that the PT/AA broohaha was unfolding, that threats issued via e-mail from solicitors/lawyers seemed just a tad unprofessional. One would think that after that fiasco, PT would have trouble even finding a "solicitor" still in school, nevermind one of current reputation.Chances are, the "letter" directed to you is a stolen copy originally made by someone else.......just like most of what this clown and his minions churn out!!Barney --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by jgm on Nov-21-01 at 05:42 PMYes...I expect this nitwit is more or less the same as the other nitwits we end up having to tolerate in this world..Pedantic little twirps that have to use "the letter of the law", at the expense of the "intent of the law", to fill the gap of their lacking personal character and integrity.I used to have to tolerate one...did so for years, then I was blessed ( ahh the memories)..he eventually tripped over his own brain, and ended up in Jail for quite a number of years..hooly dooly! John.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"RE: Are my posts defamatory? Tishma thinks so, here is my open reply."Posted by CFAOA on Nov-21-01 at 12:54 PMJeez, I wonder if everyone here called him what they they thought of him, would he have any money left to fight us all in court?I don't know why he doesn't give up already? It's quite obvious that EVERYONE hates him and would rather give up flight simming altogether, than install a single byte of information provided by his companies on their hard drives.And what a soft skinned wimp. Is he going to try and sue everyone that posts something that he may disagree with? Or when someone calls him on his mis-dealings?Anyways, Mr. Tishma go away. No one wants anything you have to offer. I won't buy your products. I won't use your products. If someone gave me your stuff for free, I wouldn't even give it away to someone else. Straight into the trash.And if you don't like what people are saying in the forums, that's okay. It's their opinions and they are entitled to them. If it bothers you so much, don't read it.BTW I've just filed patent on "lawsuits". The whole thing is mine now, so just try and sue me.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Guys, please be careful"Posted by Scylla on Nov-21-01 at 01:24 PMTen years ago, a solicitor in England tried to sue me for defamation, on his own behalf. He was an odious little rat of a man, and his allegations were absurd, but this didn't prevent him from making my life an abject misery for the best part of four months. Although his efforts came to nothing in the end, it was nevertheless a truly awful period which I could have well done without. He has since been struck off, so I could pretty much say what I like about him now.But the whole episode left me extremely wary of any mention of litigation, and I have since made it a rule to be VERY careful about what I say in certain circumstances. I'm being particularly careful now, as I write this.Even the threat of legal action should not be taken lightly, however ridiculous the circumstances may appear to you personally. I have found all this out to my cost.You may think I'm being paranoid, and you're probably right. But I advise everyone to think twice before writing or saying anything when there is the merest whiff of litigation in the air. You may laugh at my attitude towards this, but believe me, the most inoccuous of remarks said in the wrong context can without warning seriously compromise your quality of life.Please don't think I'm preaching, I have the best of intentions here.CheersDamian --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Please read"Posted by GeorgeAbrahams on Nov-21-01 at 04:26 PMDamien, I read your original post and must admit it seemed a little Tishmaish. I

[Guest]

Here you are Mr. Ci.To all my fellow enthusiasts a few words of caution and an expression of disgust.Today is my birthday.After a lifetime in Aviation as an active pilot and in later years operations, my Grandchildren can think of no better present than aviation related software. You can imagine the excitement even at my age to be given not one but two products alleging optimised for FS2002 and couldn

[Guest Toni Rauch]

John, where in my questions about Air Holland did I mention Ariane?Yes, what sparked the question was indeed the livery they're selling but the question was based on the airline's fleet, not what Ariane or anyone else want to paint on their planes.Are you going to try and twist every post I may make into some imaginary attack on Ariane? It's beginning to seem as if a certain person's paranoia may have rubbed off on you.No disrespect intended John, but if Ariane wants to say something to me, I'm confident that I'll hear from them direct. I just hope they appreciate you being their 'knight in shining armour' each time anyone else mentions their name. And to answer your other query, yes I am an Ariane customer, or at least was until they said that I can't play with their plane any more because I didn't say nice things about them....I still can't see what this has to do with Air Holland's fleet.....Toni.