MY HOLIDAY WISH FOR ALL..including payware developers

[Guest]

5 MINUTES ON MY SOAP BOX;PLEASE LET ME ENJOY IT. Thank you for readingTO ALL THOSE PAYWARE PURCHASERS WHO REGRET THEIR PURCHASE AND ARE DISSATISFIED WITH THE DEVELOPER'S PRODUCT/..PRICE/..CUSTOMER SUPPORT/..FORUM RULES/ETC ETC ETC.....GET A LIFE!! geeeeezzzI, more than anyone, appreciate the forum so I may gain inside information about a new product, the good and bad qualities of the product or even customer support (or lack thereof)...But this attitude lately (IT SEEMS TO HAVE STARTED WITH WILCO'S AIRPORT) and now PSS Dash-8. I feel the large majority of this forum could care less about reading trash, trash, trash between happy customers/upset customers/ and the payware providers.We want solid reviews (are there bugs, FR hits, bad eye candy, etc???)I don't need your whining about prices. I ALREADY KNOW the prices!!!Why can't we use this forum for helping our fellow simmer, whether it be tech assistance, providing an unknown link, reviewing a new product we have purchased or downloaded "free"??In the TRUE spirit of the season........."LIGHTEN UP !!!"Peace on Earth, Good will toward Men I am now off my soapbox..thank you It is now time to enjoy the holidaysHAPPY FLYING TO ALL & Happy New SIM-YEAR !!!!

[Guest]

TO ALL THOSE PAYWARE PURCHASERS WHO REGRET THEIR PURCHASE AND ARE DISSATISFIED WITH THE DEVELOPER'S PRODUCT/..PRICE/..CUSTOMER SUPPORT/..FORUM RULES/ETC ETC ETC.....GET A LIFE!! geeeeezzzHummmm..... so if you're unhappy with something you need to get a life???geeeeezzz... I sure hope it doesn't boil down to that the next time you are unhappy with something.Are you saying customer support isn't important??? We should just keep our mouth's shut? Sounds like you are trying to censure people. Won't work!

[Guest]

>Are you saying customer support isn't important??? We >should just keep our mouth's shut? Sounds like you are >trying to censure people. Won't work! Lando, If I did not word it exactly correct, I apologize.I am saying...By all means if customer support seems absent..then I WANT to know that...there is a big difference between stating "I can't get an answer to my emails" and stating " I AM BEING RIPPED OFF !!!"I definitely want the "reviewer's" bad comments as well as good. And I feel my post made that perfectly clear.IF saying "get a Life" offends anyone, again I apologize.. to me it just means.... stick with the facts of the matter at hand.. don't go off on a "wild " tangent.Since I started this thread, maybe I need to slip into something a little more "flame" retardent.:-ukliam

[Guest Matt Johnson]

Strange. I don't remember letting you back in here.

[Guest]

OK, wasn't too clear, but ok. ;-)

[Guest]

Vincent,I agree the attitude here has degraded into a cesspool of finger pointing and name calling. There is a great deal of criticism but not much constructive criticism. I echo your call to "lighten up" but would expand that to include the zealots who pounce on every bit of criticism, even when it is constructive. I've posted a few minireviews here myself (for what they are worth!) only to return a few hours later to find 15 replies and a big old lock on the thread because the followup somehow turned ugly. Some of the best people I've met in this hobby or any other for that matter have come from this forum. There aren't many here I wouldn't give the shirt off my back to if they truly needed it (Size L ;-)). The anonymity, permanence, and impersonal nature of written text on the web leave tremendous room for misinterpretation and hurt feelings. It' a bit like cracking a whip the way some threads escalate. It helps keeping in mind that there is a real person at the other end. It would be an interesting sociologic experiment to see if those individuals with self-portraits in their signature are flamed less often than those of us who are somewhat more anonymous. Oh, but that might break the new signature rules! ;-)David

[Guest]

Good post Vincent. I would like, however, to add my miniscule insight to your well wishes.(Diatribe / Manifesto mode on)Avsim is a microchasm of many aspects of global society. We have varying levels of intellect (G), varying levels of income, varying maturity levels and people hailing from various contries, societies and localities.As such, postings in the forums at Avsim often walk the fine line between medicinal and absurd, informational and nonsensical, humorous and bombastic, apathetic and abrasive. Understand, we as Flightsimmers are a unique group and as such we don't have anyone else with whom to speak to air our concerns, elations and frustrations. Our families, in general, don't care about our hobby, our friends (at least mine) have absolutely NO interest in hearing about simming and the people we meet in daily life, in most cases, have no clue what the heck we are talking about in reference to flight simming.Avsim, flightsim, simflight, et al, are the only places 99% of us have to go to voice our opinions, grievances, elations and accomplishments when it comes to flight sim. Here we are among like minds who all share a common love. Here we all understand the bug that has bitten us into this hobby of ours. Here we can meet our virtual friends and enjoy some good advice, a little humor, great stories, meet real pilots, learn, and, yes, let off some steam.In the real world, if we walk into a department store and purchase the new DVD player we have been waiting for, get it home, plug it in and it explodes, we can take it back to the store and exchange it, but most importantly, we will have HUMAN CONTACT to feel our pain and understand our predicament. In the real world, we can call customer service who understand that the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT (regardless if they are or not), moan to a sympathetic ear for minutes on end, even escalate our grevance to a manager. But not in our virtual world.In our virtual world, if we purchase a product there is generally no number to call, no hand to shake or ear to be lent in understanding. All we have is a email and these forums! When the frustration rises with a flight sim product, you can't call your wife, mom, dad, husband, etc, into the room and show them the horror you are going though because they don't understand anything. You can't pick up a phone and call the customer service DEPARTMENT for the product that isn't working for you because there is none. You feel the anger rising in your chest, you are frustrated, you need to vent, you need to speak to SOMEONE, ANYONE and the only place you have to come is here. Unfortunately, when one gets here we are often times met with the "don't anger the developer" syndrome and we are then told "how grateful we should be that they have blessed us with their talent", or "don't compain or they won't make any more products!" Am I the ONLY ONE who sees the rank absurdity in this attitude?!Can you imagine this attitude in the real world? For God's sake, don't anger Macy's or they won't sell us any more clothes! Just buy what they give you and be thankful they let you shop there! :-roll :-lol Sure there is such a thing as tact and patience but not everyone can be expected to live up to OUR ideals. Some may fall short but so be it. It takes all kinds to make up this world and tolerance is key. Many need to learn to get their point across without looking like fools becasue the focus is taken off of the original issue and is shifted to the stupidity of the post. However, I WILL say this: The attitudes of the payware groups, in general, is an abomination to the ideals of customer service. I've seen members of payware groups blast their customers, make snyde remarks, ignore, chastise, belittle and otherwise FORGET WHO PAYS THEIR SALARY! This is by no means a blanket statement, but make no mistake, I feel that if I BUY YOUR PRODUCT then it is understood that I have also purchased your patience and understanding too. As consumers, we have the RIGHT to complain. As consumers we have certain levels of expectations that the seller MUST MEET. These are the rules in the real world and, for me, they are NOT SUSPENDED because we are in cyperspace!!!Additionally, I see no reason why a person who is dissatisfied with with a product cannot spread his dissatisfaction by telling others. Companies live and DIE by word-of-mouth. It has been that way long before there were banner-ads, billboards, television and radio. Word of mouth keeps companies honest and ensures that those who sell a product strive to keep their reputation intact. Many here believe that if you feel chided by a developer that you should keep your mouth shut and keep it private...oh really? If you just bought a new coat that fell apart after only 6 months and your friend told you he was on his way to pick up the same coat (not knowing what happened to yours), would you sit there and smile or would you warn him / her of your experience so that he or she can make an informed decision?Lately, I have seen a lot of half baked products come down the pike (I will not single anyone out here)and the level of dissatisfaction for many has risen instead of being lowered. The reason for this is because promises have been made by developers but oftentimes the delivery is nothing compared to what was promised. What are we to do?Look...standards must be set for decency here on the forums, I agree. Standards must be set for conduct. Standards must be set for grievances. Short of this, chaos would reign. BUT IN THE SAME TOKEN, standards must be set for developers who charge for their products! Are they to go blameless? THEY must take the first step in ensuring that what is released is in the ballpark of expectations. One cannot PROMISE the sky but deliver the ground! Sure some are NEVER satisfied, but so what? If you sell 10,000 copies and only recieve 500 complaints then I say your product should receive awards, five stars and a trip to Disney World!!!Unfortunaley, I've sat here quietly and watched payware vendors filter out bad comments about their products, monitor each post and delete those that don't fit their criteria. One cannot earn true respect by filtering-in praise while filtering-out criticism. A TRUE market leader has a totally open forum to accept all comments whether it is sparkling praise or cripling criticism. A TRUE market leader knows that at the end of the day the critiques WILL COME by the boatload, BUT the praise far outweighs the neysayers if the product is TRULY GOOD and that can be displayed in an open forum for all to see. Anything short of this is blatent, unwashed, propaganda. I am of the opinion that many developers want the glory and money but don't want the headaches of having to deal with unhappy customers. Unfortunately, it comes with the territory and many need to realize that or, indeed, take your ball and go home. Trust me, there are many others just salivating to sell us new balls! (G)I offer this...let the payware vendors take the lead. Let THEM step up the quality, step up the customer service, step up the technology and step up the openness. Everyone is sick and tired of hearing people complaing, but many fail to realize what people are complaining about! Simmers are not whining for no reason. Simmers are whining because they are unhappy in some cases and often times don't know where else to turn.In the same token, we as consumers need to remember this:Just because everything is running smoothly on our systems doesn't mean it is as smooth on the next. Just because most of us were able to download the product we just paid for doesn't mean that the next person was. Just because the product met our expectations doesn't mean it met everyone elses. There seems to be a predisposition on the forums to say "hey, it works fine for me, shut up and stop whining"! Is this fair? This is one of the main reasons that a good many of the FS products for sale are just plain junk; because as consumers we are a loose mob finding it hard to be cohesive enough to demand that the bar be raised and the standards set!I close by saying that I, for one, will always be a diligent consumer. If this makes it hard on the seller if I am unsatisfied, so be it. If this makes the seller of the product angry because I DEMAND the product or service live up to the advertising, so be it. While I will not be beligerant, I will "moan and complain" as necessary because, unlike most, I do NOT answer to those I purchase from, they answer to me....for I am the consumer...hear me roar!I understand many will not like what I have written here, but in many cases the TRUTH is a hard pill to swallow. I wrote this not to start a war, but rather to bring us together as consumers, developers and lovers of the GREATEST HOBBY IN THE WORLD :-beerchug(diatribe / manifesto mode off)Happy Holidays and Peace and Health to all!!!!Mike T.

[Guest mikehaska]

Wonderful post, Mike! That should be required reading for a few people on these forums :-)

[Guest CharlesH]

Mike T:I totally agree with what you have stated. Happy Holidays to you and your family.Charles

[Guest BMarcoux]

Should be required reading on some of the OTHER forums on this board!!

[Guest Edam]

"The Mike Manifesto." Superb...although I object to you stealing what I was going to post, even though it wouldn't have been as eloquent as yours:"Just because everything is running smoothly on our systems doesn't mean it is as smooth on the next. Just because most of us were able to download the product we just paid for doesn't mean that the next person was. Just because the product met our expectations doesn't mean it met everyone elses. There seems to be a predisposition on the forums to say "hey, it works fine for me, shut up and stop whining"!But hey, it worked for you, so I won't whine about it. Hee hee...

[Francois_Dumas 10]

...thanks for your thoughts and opinion. I too believe the Customer is King, no matter what the price of the product is. Most serious companies would be long out of business if they would not in some form stick to that principle.As for the forums to be a place to discuss quality..... yep, where else !?? ;-)Francois A. DumasManaging EditorThe simFlight Network :-outta Francois :-wave[table border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0][tr][td valign=bottom" align="center]"At home in the wild"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:avsim.com/alaska/alaska_052.htm]Don's Alaskan Bush Charters]"Beavers Lead the Way"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][br][tr][td valign=top" align="center]http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/logo75b.gif[/td][td valign="top" align="left" colspan=2]http://www.fssupport.com/images/moose2.gif[/td][tr][/table

[Guest Milio_B]

My feelings exactly Mike. Only you knew how to put them in words :)

[Guest]

The BEST post I have read for a VERY long time!>Unfortunately, >when one gets here we are often times met with the "don't >anger the developer" syndrome and we are then told "how >grateful we should be that they have blessed us with their >talent", or "don't compain or they won't make any more >products!" Am I the ONLY ONE who sees the rank absurdity in >this attitude?! NO! That

[Mats_J 2]

Amen! :-)Astonishingly well put Mike! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year all you fellow simmers out there! :-wave