Wing views: commentary

[Guest]

Ho hum, here we go again.I take it you found my reply pedantic so I'll explain so you understand.You said "and it's possible for a designer to create a model with a VC and clone the wings for the wing view." My reply you know. Then you go off on a trommy saying we only do freeware. Then you imply you would expect it from payware and LARGER freeware groups. Sorry I dont understand the reasoning behind this. If your spending too many hours with your back to your family, make a choice, it's simple. I'm not too sure where your coming from that others do it as they wanted to contribute, sure a very few, but as soon as moneys mentioned 99.9% would be off like a shot to payware heaven. (take a look around, most commercials started as freeware designers). I remember one quote which I will never forget from a freeware designer, it was "I never set out to be an icon", I reached for the bucket at that one and swore I would never D/L or if he went commercial use his stuff again. Sorry Van, the choice you make is yours and yours alone. Dont expect me to feel sorry for you or feel guilty for your choices. As I said, the couch is to the left if you'd like to tell me all about it.George

[Guest FS_freak]

Back to the point. I have had the chance to sit in the jump seat of an MD80 for a complete flight from gate to gate. Yes, it is a true delight to see all the real gauges, needles and screens at work. To discuss with the crew members the way things work and what to do if they don't. But after 40 min or so, we are all trying to get a peak out the scarse cockpit glass since I have already taught them everything I know about an art they weren't aware off: the art of non FMC flying and what glideslopes are there for. We just don't have anything else to talk about. Believe me, once things are set up and the a/p is in charge, what a real life pilot really enjoys is a view out the window. They would give an eye just to be able to spend some time on a passenger seat staring at the majestic yet not intrusive wing, and the wide blue yonder. I mean, has anybody ever seen a pilot off duty flying in the cabin? They never look out the window on takeoff or landing but just watch them while cruising, cheek firmly glued to the plastic window all the way. I guess that's why we don't get paid and they do. We have the enormous priviledge of enjoying both worlds. They don't. My thanks to all the freeware developers for this.Cheers,Mauricio

[LAdamson 240]

>>You need to make your minds up, are you a simmer or a >passenger ? It does not happen in the real world, your >either one or the other. The more I think about this, what a >sad bunch to get off on a flap retracting. I have a real airplane, in which you DO need to look over the wing at the flap deployment or retraction. It's the only way you'll know the settings.I also have a WWII B-29 training film, in which observers (gunners, navigator,etc.) would look out over the wing to confirm flap deployment and retraction.As to whether sim designers use wing views or not, is their business, as many views could be complicated. But in many cases, wing and flap views are realistic for REAL pilots!L.Adamson

[Guest]

Not in heavys, as I said you want the best of both worlds ? Fly a Cessna.

[LAdamson 240]

>Not in heavys, as I said you want the best of both worlds ? >Fly a Cessna. Cessna's are boring....... :)Only good for BFR's, but wouldn't mind a nice Cessna 185 taildragger for mountain flying though! And Cessna Citation X would be my ultimate "real" machine!!!BTW--- The simulated RealAir Marchetti 260 has a nice animated wing view to look over while doing aerobatics. I forgot to mention that wing views were essential in doing real life aerobatic instruction in the Pitt's S2B.And while I'm at it, I agree that wing views are not essential for piloting a heavy, but I sure DO like highly animated FLAP/GEAR sequences for the simulation. I like taking off in spot view to watch the flap & gear retraction. I've spent many years involved with building real aircraft and have a great interest in the mechanics of them, which is probably the reason I feel the way I do. :) L.Adamson

[John_Cillis 2,406]

George....What has given you the self appointed right to define the use of FS. You perpetuate several myths about FS:Truths:-FS is a FLIGHT simulator, not a flying simulator. Enjoying the ride from a pax perspective is just as much a reason for owning the sim as cockpit drill. Sorry you don't seem to believe this and want to knock us. It's why I respect your opinion less and less these days. I already mentioned my opinion of max in the now deleted thread, and you had a chance to say--"way to go". But you chose to go one rung lower, by referring to us as a "sad bunch"...-Second truth. Virtual cockpits and wing views can and do coexist. Yet those who want to make this out to be some type of anti simming issue cry fire, where there is none. If you don't want wing views, adjust the eyepoint the way you want it. Actually, every a/c I've ever downloaded has had the eyepoint set in the cockpit. It's up to the simmer to make the change.-I would argue I am among the best sim pilots here. Don't put me behind the controls of a real A/C though...last time I did that was 'bout 20 years ago. What does that mixture control do again? More Scotch?Max's original thread was rude, and so is your response. If you don't want to enjoy wing views, you don't have to. But don't feed potential developers this b.s. That's what it is, and IMHO, you've gone way over the line. Since you consider us "a sad bunch" for enjoying such views, I consider this the end of my discussion with you. If anyone here can show me the disclaimer from MS, saying that FS is for pilots only AND that pax flying is verboten....I'll stand with my tail between my legs. But personally, I feel those debating against this issue need to get a life, and need to quit using people like max as an example to throw some shots at us, to somehow posture yourselves as superior simming "pilots". I suspect I have more real stick time, even though only a student, than many of you.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

There is nothing stopping an A/C designer from including a model with a v/c, and a model with virtual wings when it comes to heavy jets. The virtual wings are a heck of a lot easier than the VC to add, and the model can be selected via the aircraft.cfg.

[Guest Van]

Well put JohnCi!Like I've said...it's not about right or wrong, but rather having fun with ones hobby plain and simple.Van LatendresseYeoDesigns Panel/FDE designer

[Guest]

Wing views are not at the expense of VC's! In fact, I have the Posky CRJ, and with a quick mod to the panel.cfg, I can zoom to the wing view from the VC with one touch of a button! The same applies to the Ariane 737, A340-600. So, my perspective in the cockpits is where it should be, and with one button, I am over the wing. Simple!Here is what I have in the panel.cfg of my CRJ:[Views]VIEW_FORWARD_ZOOM=1.0 VIEW_FORWARD_WINDOWS=MAIN_PANEL,50VIEW_FORWARD_DIR=9.2, 0.0, 0.0VIEW_REAR_RIGHT_UP_DIR=3.0, 0.0, 90VIEW_REAR_RIGHT_UP_EYE=-0.6, -0.30,-11.0 // Adjust last value to move fore and aftNow, all you need to do is assign a button on you're joystick (or a key on the keyboard) to REAR_RIGHT_UP view, and thats it!Use FSUIPC to do this.SO, you CAN have cockpit view, AND passenger view at once! Now, could all planes have wing and VC views now? Jees, I'm tired of aregueing!

[John_Cillis 2,406]

The A340-600 and Ariane 737 do not have VC's. You can do the trick you mention with the 2-d cockpit certainly, but VC's are as important to some as wing views. There is a finite limit to the size of the aircraft involved in order to support both, I think. The recent GMAX Gulfstream is right about the limit, if I'm not mistaken. The CRJ should be right at the limit as well. With aircraft larger than that, I believe there are issues with GMAX and FSDS where only one or the other will display. Again, we're talking about VC's, not 2-d cockpits.However, my point in an earlier post: There's nothing to prevent an A/C designer from creating two aircraft configurations--one with a V/C and one with dynamic wings. FS2002 supports this easily. Only two .mdl files would be required. Not two sets of textures. And before an A/C designer quibbles with this, it is not "twice as much work". The wing views are almost a gimme, since most of the parts involved can be cloned.Again I'll echo what I did yesterday Max.... For the majority of those on this board, this is not an "us vs. them" issue. When someone knocks us for it, it isn't a great idea to respond at the same level. Most people agree that both VC's and Virtual Wing views add to the experience of flight. I wouldn't have bought the DF Cardinal without both, nor the Flight 1 421. The Ariane model was one of the first A/C I ever bought just for the eye candy. Until FFG releases their GMAX 737 NG, which will have virtual wing views, only the POSKY 747 and CRJ come close in the airliner segment to Ariane's replication of passenger views.Someone asked the question, what's so important about watching flaps move? I've logged over 1 million miles as a pax. I'm considering a career change, which will take me back to full time travel (I'm down to 1,2 trips a quarter now). Over the 13 years I've traveled for business, and the 25 years before that where I traveled for pleasure, I've fallen in love with the beauty of manned flight. Part of that beauty--being seated behind the wing, watching the deft hands of the pilot (or deft skill of the AP) as they are reflected in the movement of the ailerons against the chop. I used to come home from my trips and tell my wife that I was "cloud hopping." During the AZ monsoons, flying is exactly that, as pilots weave in and out of the cells that like to line Sky Harbor in the afternoon and evening.Every phase of flight...flap deployment, gear deployment, spoilers, reversers....it's a sight I marvel at, how all these things work in concert.I haven't gotten around to it, but I have a great video of a 737-300 takeoff I took back in '87 that I'll upload. It's right around 5 megs, and I guess it somes up my love of flight, as well as flying.-John

[Guest]

Wing Views.I am a crewman on the C130 Hercules.I have on occasion sat in the pilots or the co-pilots seats.In those positions you can ,quite easily see from the Inboards of engines 1 and 4 too the wing tip, with a little extra effort you can see engines 2 and 3.I have downloaded a few C130's, the ones with wingviews are still on my comp those without, are gone. Not only because they didnt have wingviews, but the AIR files were just welll CRAP!!. Some with wingviews were scrapped for AIR file garbage.Would i fly a plane without wingviews....YESWould i fly a plane with a lousy AIR file but nice wingviews....NOI would fly a garbage can, as long as it flys like the craft i want it too fly like.Wingviews, YES, but NOT at the expense of a good AIR file!!.

[LAdamson 240]

>Wingviews, YES, but NOT at the expense of a good AIR file!!. >Agreed,I've dumped many beautiful freeware's because the air.file just didn't fly like an airplane. And I really am into "eyecandy" when it comes to good looking exteriors!L.Adamson

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Wingviews, YES, but NOT at the expense of a good AIR file!!."I'd keep the aircraft, and get out my tweaker's toolkit to get the .air file into shape... Or replace the .air files altogether. Luckily, .mdl files and .air/.cfg files aren't dependent on each other. As long as you edit the .cfg file, your .mdl can be anything. Might be sunk into the ground, but hey...that's the fun of FDE edits.Sad but true, some people are artists with the CAD apps (GMAX, FSDS), but the subtleties of flight dynamics elude them. But I'm happy to see more and more aircraft (like the F1 421 and DF Cardinal) that fly with the "touch" I'd expect. Recent posts suggest the PSS Dash 8 handles very well, as well...

[ronzie 21]

Being a former GA pilot, I frequently used wings as a visual reference point such as to determine a position in a traffic pattern relative to the threshold of the desination runway. They can in some instances assist in determining in patterns and slow approaches wind drift during maneuvering.It might also be interesting for some to practice visual flight manuevers such as pylons and steep turns in small to medium aircraft to experience an occasion unplanned stall (at a safe recovery altitude) because you did not scan the primary instruments while you concentrated too long on the reference point off your wing tip.I also like the confident feeling of sitting on or hanging from that wing even in the heavies.I also like the reality where you have to do a few manuevers prior to climb or descent to insure there is no traffic in the blind spot created by high or low wings.If all you do is instrument flight without circle to landings but just have your eyes riveted on the panel and forward view, then wings may not matter as much but in scanning for uncontrolled traffic it is nice to see them out there.

[Guest]

I love wing views too! Especially, when you I the aircraft, I get the feeling of flying (I guess it has something to do with a fixed wing as a point of reference against the background) - I love Meljet's wing views (except that a lot of people get that wing tearing effects due to some graphic card problems I guess).