In real life yokes do not return to center automaticall

[Guest]

Hi friends:Following statement has been extracted from Microsoft knowledge base Q224555:""SideWinder Force Feedback: Return To Center Force Does Not Function in Certain Games (e.g., FS2002)[...] This behavior can occur because some games disable the Return To Center force to allow you to feel subtle forces such as wind or a stall, and to duplicate the feel of a plane's joystick or yoke, which in real life does not return to center automatically"". In real life yoke does not return to center automatically? Perhaps it could be right with the self-centering mechanism, but I also think that aerodinamical forces over ailerons and elevator demand to the pilot effort to move yoke. I would like to know if real pilots agree whit MS aseveration.Tanks in advance,Star C

[Guest]

The MS statement is correct. In fact, IMO, this is one of the biggest shortcomings of most FS controllers (sticks and yokes). With the exception of fly-by-wire aircraft (i.e., A320), in the real world, control pressure is used to affect a change in aircraft attitude. Trim is then used to relieve this control pressure - at whatever position the yoke is in.If I were to do "slow flight" in a real C182, the yoke would be completely in my lap. The slow airspeed would require a large amount of (nose up) control deflection to maintain the attitude. The trim wheel would be used to hold the control in that position and relieve my arm of the aerodynamic load. This same maneuver in MSFS results in the yoke being centered when properly trimmed (non-force feedback). I have never used a Force Feedback control, but your statement implies that the MS FF stick may correct this shortcoming - if this is so, I'd like to know as I'm considering upgrading to a CH yoke, however I may go the FF route if that is more realistic.In contrast, the fly-by-wire control logic on A320-type aircraft uses the (side) stick as a rate-based controller; leave the stick alone and the computers will work to maintain the desired attitude, deflect the stick and the aircraft will pitch or roll at a rate proportionate to the degree of stick deflection. This is true in the A320 regardless of whether the autopilot is manually engaged. Interestingly, the designers had to build in artificial control "feel" when landing; when close to the ground, the Airbus will exhibit a slight nose-down pitching moment requiring the pilot to continue to apply aft stick pressure to flare the aircraft as he would using conventional controls.

[Guest]

I have both the Force feedback stick and the CH yoke. The yoke is much more realistic IMO. I did not like the FF as it did some strange forces at odd times and sometimes even felt like it would relese all forces like it disconnected and then add them back at odd times. The only thing I miss is the "Bump" when the wheels touchdown on landing.Ken

[Guest]

Don't get your hopes up on the FF stick. Let me describe a little experiment:1. Apply aileron to roll into a bank. 2. When you reach about 30 degrees of bank, relax your pressure on the control column.3. What happens next?In "my" real C172, the aircraft more-or-less holds that bank angle until you apply further pressure to tighten the turn or to roll back out of it. I never really noticed where the column is, because I don't usually fly by the position of the column - just the pressure I have to put on it.In FS2002 with a Force feedback stick, the aircraft keeps rolling and you'll end up in an increasingly steep turn. If you want to stop it from rolling further, you need to put the stick back into the centre position by hand. There's practically no back-pressure from the stick in any position - in trim, out of trim, it doesn't care.In FS2002 with an old-fashioned stick, the stick returns to the centre position through the force of its spring and the aircraft more-or-less holds its bank angle. If you want to fly out of trim, you need to apply force.You can guess which I find more natural. Nick.

[Guest]

This is dead right!One area we all have to adapt to in ALL home-PC simulators is that trim cannot properly ease forces on the arms. In fact FS, and many other flight-sims simulate trim in effect by changing the C of G offset of the aircraft. In some cases the trim acts as a seperate kind of global elevator and in many FS if you wind up the trim as far as goes, it will be more powerful than the actual elevator.Thus trim in FS is a compromise, and since most sticks have a spring-to-centre mechanism, trim is used to hold a speed (or temporarily, an attitude) without reference to the force on the stick.In FF sticks, things get slightly better, depending on make, but I've yet to see any stick which truly communicates the correct forces to the flyer.Best Regards,Rob Young

[Geofa 108]

I agree Rob, and this is an area I am getting increasingly frustrated by.All the advances in Fs-weather, geography, atc, aircraft done in total realism, fm's,etc. have come to the point where it is almost a complete recreation of the flying experience-if not a great training tool (how I use it).The force of the yoke and trim is still the equiv. of fs2 days. The feel isn't right and the trim isn't right. This area really needs to be addressed-it simply isn't in the same league as the product right now. I hope some manufacturer will come out with a product to address this. How about Microsoft Flight yoke?-they have addressed almost every other area!?http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/Geofdog2.jpg

[Guest]

In FS I get the feeling as I am controlling somthing thats on a never ending metal bar, just doesn't feel as your "flying".

[Randall 82]

Air File Pro from Lago is helping with the "feel" of flying. I'm new to it but like it so far. It's at least a software attempt to address some of these issues.Randall

[Guest Smiley]

Everything stated above sounds good to me.If I was to read the original question "differently" ;) I would answer that yes, the control stick/yoke will center itself "nearly" and the aircraft will fly at whatever attitude/speed it is trimmed for if you release it. Depending on the designed stability of the aircraft.Trim for slow flight (in RL) and the yoke will be closer to your chest and the force required to pull on it is reduced (you shouldn't trim for too slow of flight, always keeping some needed back pressure to maintain attitude).Our virtual world has fallen behind in the joystick area as stated above. I would think that CH or whomever could move the yoke farther back or forward as trim is added to reflect the trimmed aircraft. At least a FF yoke/stick should be able to do this (or do it better). Until they do, we'll still need to allow our minds to be creatively filling in these gaps between the real world and the virtual one in which we spend so much of our time :)

[Guest Moghdad]

Microsoft's statement is just plain lame. Funny really, the attempt to excuse their failure to patch a glaring problem where their own FF sticks will not work properly with their simulator. My Sidewinder II flops around in every direction. It has none of the stability or the solid feel of a real airplane control. Even in the small planes I fly there is aerodynamic resistance to any movement of the rudder or yoke that gets stronger as airspeed increases. For MS to pretend that it's "realistic" for the stick to flap around loosely at cruise speed is more insulting than dumb.