DDR3 or DDR2 System Memory?

[Guest Nick_N]

This is a very solid platform... its NOT the same as the DELUXE model... it uses the same power and filtering as the x45 coming up in a few months but it will play DDR3 like a harp.http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3229&p=5Quote: a tRD of 6 ... thats the ticket... 6 and under and that was on a release BIOS with no real pain in tweaking. It can do better too.If you can get a P5K3 down to 6 stable on a decent CPU clock, your doing good but I was not able to do it on anything more then 2GB.Dont judge that one based on the P5k3 or P5e3 Deluxe.. its not the sameIf I were going to buy and was not going to wait another 2 months, thats the one I would go for... due out very soonYou do need to know how to deal with that BIOS. If you try to trick it out using typical DDR2 tweak methods, it won't perform as well.Anyway.. as soon as I can I will post the one I am using right now but that probably wont be for another 8 weeks, at least.I did work with the P5e3 Deluxe and Premium.. Deluxe was a dud Premium was fun city and much more stable with a solid release BIOS. I would still hold off for another 8 weeks though.

[Guest D17S]

Economics? There is No CPU upgrade path from any 775 socket mobo. Any 775 based build now Will Not be upgradeable to Any new Intel CPU, ever. The Penryn is the end of the line. If ya gotta get one, it'll be a darn fine system . . . but it's a dead end. There is No benefit to the X38/X48 over the P35. PCI-e 2.0 bandwidth capability will not become necessary until well into your next build cycle, if then. For instance, AGP 8x bandwidth capability is Just Now being fully utilized by modern Vcard. All these bussses (SATA II, 400Mhz FSB, et al) tend to be Way ahead of any useful propose. If you will be taking a Q6600 to 3.6Ghz, you will set a 400mhz FSB. A P35 was purpose built to deal with a 400mhz FSB. My P5K-e went there without Any bios tweak and sits there 24/7 without a wimper. I set my FSB to 400, CPU Vcore to 1.4v and That Was It. Get a Gigibite or Asus P35 mobo. But should you get DDR3 memory because it can be reused? No way. Consider your upgrade path: In Q4, Intel's next CPU will be the Nehalem. It will utilize a different socket configuration and will Not be backward compatible to any 775 mobo. (X45, et al). The big news though, is that the FSB is going away. Nehalem will utilize a very AMD-ish style buss system called Quickpath. The memory controller will be onboard the CPU (just like AMD). It is likely this format will ONLY operate with DDR3 ram. This more direct interface between the CPU and ram modules - might - allow the increased speed afforded by DDR3 to finally actually help Real World performance. But remember, AMD has had this Quickpath (aka "Hypertransport") memory interface buss system in use for years. AMD memory bandwidth performance has cleaned Intel's clock with their rickety FSB interconnect. Every memory bandwidth measurement known to man. AMD wins. So what does this mean? It means that AMD has unarguably proven that increased memory bandwidth provides NO Real World performance improvement. We'll just have to wait and see how Intel's application goes. The economics argue that since increased memory bandwidth provide no real world benefit, DDR2 will allow FSX to operate at a maximum capacity. There is absolutely no point in using DDR3 in a 775 mobo. Let the early adopters suffer its growing pains. It will provide no benefit now, and be cheaper (and stabilized) when is is finally required (for the next build). Right now, it's just for the hobbiests. They are blazing the trail for us, and I say thank-you.Go with Vista 64. If you want to spend extra dough on ram, get 8 gigs of the cheapest DDR2-800 you can find (lifetime warranty). Timings are meaningless to a simple simmer (too). All you need is ram that will run at 800Mhz. I have 4 and am usually well into a 3 gig load with FS running. Wish I had 8.

[Guest Nick_N]

SamYour assessment about memory bandwidth is only correct if the user does not know how to apply that bandwidth to the Intel CPU and motherboard memory controller and it is the SAME for AMD in that respect.I completely agree that if someone currently has a Core2 system they should wait for Nellie and not purchase right nowI do not agree that if someone wishes to upgrade now (for what ever reason) before Nellie arrives they should go DDR2 if they are willing to accept the cost, and, do the research in how to set it up right. The DDR3 memory CAN be transferred to the Nellie platform WITHOUT extra cost where by the user will have to make an entire new purchase later if they go DDR2 now.The issue is the cost and the learning curve. Some simply do not wish to deal with learning the ins and outs and prefer the plug-n-go method with a small FSB setting change.. thats fine, DDR2 is better for them. Economics does play heavy into the DDR3 equation and I do agree that the money spent would better go to next gen hardware later this year, none the less.. it depends on the user and what they want now, and, what they are willing to spend/learn.I do agree that when DDR3 was first released there were growing pains however most of those were solved with BIOS updates. Even the limited slot use P5K3 Deluxe can and will SING on DDR3 memory if the user selects the right memory components which are really just hitting the market now, and, they also take the time to learn how to set it up. Unfortunately that board is restricted to 2 slots for true DDR3 performance. If 4 slots are populated its not going to run much better than DDR2.I have both DDR2 and DDR3 systems and have tested FSX on both. The correctly set up DDR3 systems will in fact run FSX smoother and with more scenery and the IQ tends to be better because of the resources behind the application. DDR3 does not provide a net generation leap in performance, that will require the CPU/GPU 'hand-off' systems coming later this year, however when it comes to FSX every -properly- channeled MHz counts and no one can argue that.With Intel and DDR3 the key is a balanced between the CPU STRAP and the memory bandwidth with a tweaked tRD. IT takes time to learn how to set something like that up and its not plug-n-go. Even DDR2 can take advantage of that but not like DDR3.and I do agreee with the x64 OS suggestion. its the future, its now and its needed to make the most of the memory requirements with FSX, especially with the Vista OS.

[FlyinMisfit 0]

hi Nick,i have a couple of questions for ya. first off, i have the Ausus P5E3 Deluxe WiFi mobo. - BIOS 0601 w/Intel QX9650 2GB of Corsair DDR# 1333 running at 1333 speed with 9-9-9-24 timings.i read in another thread where you stated that the P5E3Deluxe mobo. was a dud. my questions are as follows...1. is the P5E3 Deluxe a dud from a stability or performance standpoint? or both?2.(trying to OC to 4Ghz) i'm using a Zalman CNPS 9500AT all copper heatsink and can't get the PC past the WinXP splash screen during boot. FSB=333 Multiplier=12 Vcore voltage is set to 1.325 i haven't changed the "Strap" thingy setting or the CPU PLL voltage settings in the BIOS. don't know what those settings are for and didn't want to possibly damage an expensive CPU. the CPU is running stable at 3.7Ghz OC at 333 FSB with an 11 mult. anyway i can hit the 4Ghz. mark with stability under full load without exceeding the max. vcore voltage and max temp ranges?3. in the BIOS hardware monitor with vcore set at 1.325, the actual voltage to the processor is showing 1.274 volts. is this accurate? if so, why isn't the proc. getting the 1.325 volts?4. while shutting the computer down from within Windows and the "Windows is Shutting Down" text apeears on the screen the competer makes a "click" sound as if the computer is being turned off. the power light on the computer goes out, the optical light on the mouse goes out, along with the power light on the FFB2 joystick. then nearly 10 seconds later the computer actually turns off. PSU and everything else. is this normal for a Quad-Core CPU system or is it a BIOS issue? or a mobo prob?(i hope not) any thoughts? 5. from reading alot of the posts in the Asus forum for this mobo. it appears that it's a nightmare getting the PC to boot after updating the BIOS on these boards. any suggestions on this as well?thanks in advance for your help. happy flyin, FMupdate; to all, please disregard this post. i started a new thread. thx., fm

[Mace 1,926]

Nick what motherboard are you running your QX6700 on, the Asus P5E3 Deluxe?RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

[Guest D17S]

Just as a for instance, I an an audiophile. My special equipment preforms light years beyond normal stuff. The nuance I can discern from a well recorded piece is eye watering in those most subtitle moments. But when I bring a normal person in and say listen to this! . . . I'm met with a courteous "sounds nice." To a novice ear, the difference is inaudible. After an hour or two of education, I can generally extract a conciliatory, "Yea, I can hear that, I think." Actually they just want to get on to something else. Then they ask how much time and cost is in that rig cost. I then generally get a very non-conciliatory, "For that? It took me an hour to even figure out what you were talking about, and I'm still not sure I can hear a difference. You're nuts!" And so I am, but it's my hobby. I've also found the more I spend, the better it sounds (i.e., the better I Need it to sound). Like DDR3, it might be objective to me, but subjective to a general audience. That also means the difference (if there really is any) is minuscule. Be aware this is hobbiest stuff. Memory bandwidth and FSB speeds will provide no tangible benefit to any normal user. To the hobbiest, the results will remain subjective, at best . . . and the more (in)vested a hobbiest becomes in its outcome, the better it will seem to run.

[Guest SoarPics]

and the more (in)vested a hobbiest becomes in its outcome, the better it will seem to run.Excellent description of human nature, Sam.Cheers,

[Guest Nick_N]

One that I can not say right now... I am under NDAAnd I am also using another quad processor too. The QX6700 is what I use to test backwards compatibility on the newer motherboards that have and are targeted for Penny supportBut I did have it on the P5e3 Premium and it was -solid-the Deluxe was nothing but an unstable pain.. those are hit and miss. Some people have no problems, others want to throw them out the window. (present company too)The premium was just a DREAM to clock... but I would still wait.by the way... here is a nice article on how to REALLY get the most out of DDR2/DDR3 using WHAT REALLY COUNTS.. MCH Read Delay -AKA- -BKA- the gem of all gems in clocking Intel: tRD http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3208&p=8and the name on that motherboard in the article... Hmmmmmmm WHERE DO I KNOW THAT NAME FROMnow I remember.. the one I saw has: Asus Rampage Extreme printed on it (*waits for smack*)QUOTE: Our experience has always been that the X38/X48 chipsets simply work better when teamed with DDR3 memory. For whatever reason, we find that for absolute ease of overclock and rock-solid stability nothing beats an X38/X48 DDR3 board. Unfortunately, DDR3 prices can be a rather large obstacle for some, especially when dealing with the higher speed bins.

[Mace 1,926]

Ah, so there was a REASON why you did not mention the mb :)It seems, then, the decision by the sys builder must be budgetary, aka the old price vs. performance game. Seems like it's always been that way with any aspect of system building.There will be a time when DDR3 is the de facto standard. It's going to come down in price. Be interesting to see what DDR3 prices per gig look like 1 year from today.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

[Guest Nick_N]

What? I did not say what board I was using :-lol Anyway.. those who wish to learn how to clock and get the most out of DDR2 or DDR3 should learn that formula and how to calculate it yourself based on the numbers you are trying to runIn that, DDR3 has solid advantages because the bandwidth being used is NOT wasted and will be applied.With Intel it does not require 500-550+FSB or even massive GHz clocks off the processor to nail the high notes in DDR2/DDR3. On the contrary. Its more about the STRAP and the memory timing in relation to the FSB with tRD in sync. In that, the higher memory speeds and efficiencies DDR3 allows will pull away from DDR2 in real world application use. That is why the newer Asus boards and others are now placing that adjustment in the BIOS under its correct name. In the past you had to force the tRD change using math and settings methods, or, they gave you a setting but did not name or specify tRD what the adjustment.All newer boards worth squat will have that setting in its BIOS. It is still up to the user to learn how to set that based on the desired outcome and the specs around the purchased components.

[Noel 4,501]

In that, the>higher memory speeds and efficiencies DDR3 allows will pull>away from DDR2 in real world application use.How about quantifying "pull away" in . . . real world application terms? Let's say you have 4 processors running at 4GHz each. With a high end video card running at 1600 x 1200 4xAA/16xAF, how will a 2000Mhz FSB equipped platform compare against a 1333MHz FSB in terms of frame rate and smoothness in a variety of applications, including FSX or FS9? What is the MAX mb/sec a 4GHz processor can push thru the FSB? How often does the FSB become the limiting factor in a let's say 1333MHz FSB with a 4.0GHz processor in a variety of real world apps?The rest is academic :()Noel

[Guest D17S]

Try an experiment. Drop your FSB to 266Mhz and increase your multi to 15 (266 x 15 = 4.0ghz). Lock your memory at 1:1 (or by whatever means your mobo provides, allow your memory to de-clock to DDR x 266 = 533Mhz). This is that ancient 266FSB / 533 memory standard, but still with a 4.0Ghz CPU. Do these FSB / Memory bandwidth capacities reduce your system's performance? Your computer should virtually stop, or not. Can you see, or even 'feel' anything? What cha get?

[Noel 4,501]

Good idea Sam. I am *right now* flying EGLL >> EDDM in a PMDG 737-800 fully tricked out at 4.0GHz, 1600MHz FSB. It's so nice Sam :()I did a system restore from about a week ago, and voila, my easy overclockability is for some odddddd reason restored as well. I wonder what the heck did that? Installed a few programs, and maybe a driver got snuck in I don't know. Anyway, she's at 4.0Ghz with a freakin peak temp of 36C, and a lowly 1.2875 vCore. I will try the sloooooowwww FSB you suggest and see what haps.QX9650 w/ Retail HSF|8GB Muskin PC-6400|ASUS P5E|EVGA 8800GT @700|Seagate SATA 2 x 4|Seagate Cheetah 15K.x|XP Pro|Vista 64--soon to be installed