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RAM type/speed for new system

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Guest Nick_N

You want to argue low humidity?OK, forget thermal inversion which I know is a very strong possibility and happening with a room AC unit....===============================Low humidity greatly increases the possibility of static electric discharges. Such static discharges can corrupt data and damage hardware===============================Im not going to go back and forth... its up to you what you stick in your computer and as for for my pal, I was using that to demonstrate the use of 450FSB with a 45nm quad processor, not brag about a clock Noel. He wanted performance and no-question stability so it was set up for that purpose since it is a work horse computerthe point is 450 can be done with a Q45nm with no in-depth voltage changes and it can be done on a P5E too. I dont care what the kiddies at Corsair or anywhere else posted. The issue is a system limit with a Q45nm processor and large memory installed, and its not seen on every tower. That was my point... that and your P5E should have no problem running 450MHz

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So, the two years running, every day almost, was just amazing luck eh? BTW, my brother's P4 is set up exactly the same way. 2+ years with AC blowing into the tower. I O'C my mush to 1200, it dies, and now it's my cooler. Occam's Razor. You are also suggesting ALL P5E's will do 450Mhz FSB. I thought this was one of the advantages of X48's, that they could handle support higher FSB's, no? No variability among P5E's? They all can do 450? That's great, but doubtful.Derek's take on FSB's and 45nm, and your prior comment on a BIOS fix, are you now dismissing these?I think it's a good thought, but 4 years of it, daily, didn't hose the other two platforms. I'll keep using it, thanks.ADDENDUM: I think the bigger issue may be in cycling temperatures. This does happen with this cooling solution. Thanks, I stand corrected. But, it's a possibility I will concede. However, 4 years of success should say something.


Noel

System:  9900K@5.0gHz@1.23v all cores, MSI MPG Z390M GAMING EDGE AC, Noctua NH-D15S w/ steady supply of 40-60F ambient air intake, Corsair Vengeance 32Gb LPX 3200mHz DDR4, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 2, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM 850W PSU, Win10 Pro, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frametime Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320NX, WT 787X

 

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Guest Nick_N

NoelWhat does a P5E use for a chipset?x38?Is that chipset more advanced that the P35?Of course it isDDR3 or not, 450FSB can be done on those chipsets assuming the memory is populating the right slots and the correct steps are taken to set FSB/Mem/CPUThe high end without chillers to the P35 is 480 and some have gotten the x38 to 510.What I am telling you is using a home AC unit the way you using it are goes against everything in electronics. Its not a theory Noel, these are hard facts known by thermal dynamic and electronic engineers, not to mention the top dog IT Admins since computer rooms started in big corporations. Heck NASA knew that with Apollo which is why they thought 13 was going to be a disaster and it would not be the C02 that killed them. They lucked out because those old systems were not micro made on multi-layer PCB like they are todayAlthough the systems have changed the facts have not.. Its not safe and its not right to do.Placing the tower in a room with AC and away from the unit is one thing... pumping it directly into the box is insane

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>Placing the tower in a room with AC and away from the unit is>one thing... pumping it directly into the box is insaneYou know I started this with a 3y/o P4 system, so didn't have much to lose $$ wise. Since it caused no visible troubles, I continued using it with my current system. Apparently, the insane practice caused no problems in TWO different systems used virtually daily, for a cumulative total of 4 years. Call it what you will, but the risk is apparently partly theoretical, and partly practical, and will depend on other variables. As for temp cycling: I doubt this is that critical either from teh CPU's standpoint. After all, CPUs with air cooling ALWAYS cycle rapidly, from idle to peak temps, and that can be a huge swing. Actually, the swings that happen with my cooling solution are less severe than this typical idle/peak swing. Their design can apparently accomodate this else they'd be failing right and left.As for static electricity. This is a concern. My metal hoses are grounded, and so are all components, so I think this is low risk.While what you are saying sounds like good sound advice, you have to admit 4 cumulative years should say SOMETHING. Both systems worked wonderfully, and still do, overclocked. THAT, means something too, Nick.


Noel

System:  9900K@5.0gHz@1.23v all cores, MSI MPG Z390M GAMING EDGE AC, Noctua NH-D15S w/ steady supply of 40-60F ambient air intake, Corsair Vengeance 32Gb LPX 3200mHz DDR4, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 2, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM 850W PSU, Win10 Pro, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frametime Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320NX, WT 787X

 

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Guest Nick_N

>>Derek's take on FSB's and 45nm, and your prior comment on a>BIOS fix, are you now dismissing these?> >I am not saying the issue may not exist.. we know it does however what I am saying is you should not have had any problem with your P5E getting it to 450 on the right numbers and if it would not do that I strongly suspect the AC because FSB stability is the MOST delicate area of a motherboard and anything in the way of moisture, right down to the microscopic level can and WILL affect thatNot to mention what happens in sockets where you cant see

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Guest Nick_N

Yes, and Apollo 13 made it back tooLuck is everywhere, isnt itYou do what you want.. I'm not going to go any further into it

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Hi Pete,I am still reading this fascinating thread which is quite looong! But based on my experience and also advice from other much more experienced flight-simmers, MEMORY and CPU power are the most important for Flight Simulator, not video card.So spend money on that amazing E8400 Intel Core2 duo (which is what I just got in my new PC) and fast memory (at least 2GB - but do not forget that Windows XP sees memory only up to 3GB, so if you ahve 4GB, it will not see it unless you use Vista) and a good motherboard.Flight Simulator is processing intensive and even though it has to have a good graphics card, if you have a slow CPU and a fast graphics card, you will not see hardly any difference worth your while in performance frame rates.Good luck.John

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>>Yes, and Apollo 13 made it back too>>Luck is everywhere, isnt it>>You do what you want.. I'm not going to go any further into>itGood Nick. I have drawn my own conclusions. My P5E did not do 450 ever. It did do 440 just great, for a while. I am convinced I shortchanged the NB's voltage needs and browned it out. This makes much more sense than cold (ish) low flow air over my components, for which I have four years of trouble-free operation to consider in the differential dx.Nuf said, Peace Nick.


Noel

System:  9900K@5.0gHz@1.23v all cores, MSI MPG Z390M GAMING EDGE AC, Noctua NH-D15S w/ steady supply of 40-60F ambient air intake, Corsair Vengeance 32Gb LPX 3200mHz DDR4, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 2, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM 850W PSU, Win10 Pro, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frametime Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320NX, WT 787X

 

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Guest Nick_N

LOL there was never 'not' peace NoelWhat you are doing goes against 40-50 years of electronic design and it's not revolutionary, its luck... But I do think your luck finally ran out trying to push a tower to perform in that environmentIf you think delicate high frequency circuits benefit from that type of exposure, then your on your own when it comes to stability/ ability.. and burnouts.

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>What you are doing goes against 40-50 years of electronic>design and it's not revolutionary, its luck... But I do think>your luck finally ran out trying to push a tower to perform in>that environmentNick, you can choose to ignore 4 years of proven performance (that's over 8,000 hours Nick) and frame it as luck, and you can continue to apply generalities taken from guidelines for protecting mission critical server housings to my application. That is your prerogative. There is no signficant static risk in this. Parts are grounded, and it's VERY low flow 50 degree air. Nothing is jumping out of the air. Temp fluctuations are less severe than with typical changes from cold to start up, idle to load. This is no microdeposition of condensation. It's just not that intense.Your affirmation that this was the source of my mainboard failure, is just another example of your tendency to come across as authoritative, and in this instance you really don't know what the source of my mainboard failure was. Mainboard failures happen. You don't know the cause of mine. I liked your last comment on this: "I'll quote you on this: You [think] what you want.. I'm not going to go any further into it."Stick to your word Nick. I'm comfortable with my evaluation of THIS PARTICULAR situation.


Noel

System:  9900K@5.0gHz@1.23v all cores, MSI MPG Z390M GAMING EDGE AC, Noctua NH-D15S w/ steady supply of 40-60F ambient air intake, Corsair Vengeance 32Gb LPX 3200mHz DDR4, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 2, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM 850W PSU, Win10 Pro, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frametime Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320NX, WT 787X

 

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Guest Nick_N

end of discussion

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Guest Nick_N

>Your affirmation that this was the source of my mainboard failure, is just another example of your tendency to come across as authoritative,I said I firmly believe it was, that does not make it factHoweverI am not going to play word games with you either

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Guest D17S

Good! Now where were we?(xFerred from previous) "Often engaging the context is more productive than the content. I've never understood the content of the memory subsystem optimization drill. What this engagement Did accomplish was to make me Very aware that I did not understand the memory system at all! The first step in any 12 step program is to fully recognize that a problem exists. Boy, I'm there now.The top down approach is really not too helpful, long term. For instance, I use the FIM (Fault isolation manual) at work for troubleshooting. Most often this manual does not address the specific issue I have encountered. If I'm under a time constraint, I use the manual to provide myself a "shopping list" of related components. I then just start mindlessly swapping them in, one after another 'til the problem goes away. This is a top down approach. I have no idea of how the system really works. (To finally draw the analogy) I just keep adjusting Ras and Cas and tThis and tThat until something happens. After years, I can pretty well guess what will do what, still without any real system knowledge.As you might guess, I consider this a faith-based approach, where I Don't understand and leave "all that" to the Creator of this Boeing (or Intel) system. I've described that I'm (most certainly) Not above using this method, but Only as a Last resort. This is the method we've been provided and when system variances begin to occur that are beyond a faith-based practitioner's frame of "common sense," the wheels fall off. The system's behavior was never explainable, but now also becomes unsolvable. At work, this is generally where I come in. The faith-based approach can be cheaper and quicker. However when it hits it's limit, the airplane (at best) just stops, but at worst becomes unsafe. And here we are.Let's start from the bottom and see if we can actually understand this thing. Read over my initial thesis about the FSB. This memory optimization issue will end up being All about coordinating the timing (or synchronization) between the memory's speed and the FSB's speed. Controlling RPM (or clock speed) will only be a method by which an operator can more closely match the timing between the FSB's RPM and the memory's RPM. Can you see why the holy-grain quest for memory speed completely misunderstands this pivotal concept?In the mean time, re-read (I mean get out your green visor and - focus - ) this Anandtech article's description of tRD. They'll blabber on about the attributes of the x48 chip set, Yea bla, bla. We've had plenty that. Try to focus on How the memory controller tries (with massive effort!) to enable tooth engagement from two gears spinning at potentially different RPMs. They call it the "Clock crossing procedure". I got it, I get it and I'll try to concrete an intelligible translation. tRD will be an excellent starting point ( - Please - note I said "starting point")http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3208&p=5Until then, just relax back into simming with the best we mere mortals can achieve.FS9 is Only required for the PMDG airplane . . . and even then, ONLY at low altitudes.My big deal (right now) is to master a hand flown ILS at 1/8 vis and heavy gusts. FS9 is the only platform that allows the fluidity to fly that precisely in the ONLY airplane that provides that precision. So, this is a big deal, to me.Everything else is fine in FSX. Fly the FSX Sitka approach with DX10 and Ultra high settings. Any hi-end rig will do that (even my modest box). The view is Stunning. That's real too. ***In AC current, a cycle happens on a very specific time interval, For instance, with our 60 cycle (60Hz) wall power, each of those 60 cycles takes exactly 1/60th or a second to complete. Said another way, each cycle is 1/60th of a second long. Said another way each cycle has a latency of 1/60th of a second because you have to wait 1/60th of a second for the next cycle to come along.From here on out, all we're doing is dealing with this precise, simple concept, abit dealing with much faster AC cycling. We're really gonna wind it up! As the CPS ("Hz" or "Cycles per second") increases, each individual cycle's time length will get shorter and shorter. Once you get this basic idea, the rest is a breeze. Well maybe not a breeze, but at least we'll have a foothold on the cliff.In the computer world we use these AC cycles to move data. It's this "conveyor belt" analogy I've used previously. In the earliest days of computers (?), we had a computer that used a Front side buss running at 60Hz. We wanted to use every single one of these cycles to move data back and forth between the memory sticks and the CPU. However for equally easy to understand reasons (later!) the physics of electricity will not allow us to use every cycle. The memory controller springs into action. The memory controller's job (Northbridge now, Quickpath soon) is to use as many of these FSB cycles as possible . . . . but it - Cannot - use them all.For instance if the memory controller can only use every 12th cycle, this will Really slow things down. The memory controller has to wait through 12 cycles before it can slam a data bit aboard the FSB express. It had to wait through 12 cycles X 1/60th of a second per cycle, or .2 seconds between data loads. Or said in 'computerize,' our memory has a "latency" of .2 seconds (Note: this is only one of the factors that slows down this Memory < > FSB transfer process . . . but it's a BiGGiE).This mysterious "tRD" is the simply the number of FSB alternating current (AC) cycles the memory controller must skip before it can slam a data bit aboard the FSB express. (Geeze, How complicated did they want to make this?!)Now you do the math. How long is each AC cycle at 400Mhz? Got it? Now if I have a tRD of 12, what's my latency? (How long is an AC cycle at 400Mhz X 12).Now, if I could reduce my tRD to 6, might that not achieve a Bigger improvement than trying to smoke a CPU/FSB at a 500 FSB and running ram modules to 2000Mhz? But faster should be better? Not necessarily, At All!Consider: It appears there are two distinct processes occurring in the memory subsystem. First is the inner workings of the memory module. The modules use factors called Memory speed (DDRXYZ)/CAS/RAS/ETC. These internal mechanizations produces the memory module's "product." The second process is getting this "product" out of the NewEgg warehouse (i.e., memory module) and onto the Burlington Northern express freight train (i.e, FSB). That transfer (or loading) process uses a tool called tRD. Both processes are critical. There is an electrical principle that determines that the better we can sync the memory and the FSB's RPM, the better chance we have to get those transfers done - more often - . Consider this analogy of a memory subsystem: The ram module is an ultra modern Newegg warehouse that has a tram system around the perimeter of its central warehouse (maybe not so outrageous!). This tram is in constant motion. The memory module processes of CAS/RAS/ETC are the central warehouse processes that load the perimeter tram. The tram then runs by the loading dock, but does not stop. The loading dock has a single door. Burlington Northern has a rail line just outside the warehouse that runs directly by this loading dock door. (What's cha think this is?) Newegg has such volume that Burlington has an endless train that is in continuous motion as it moves past that single loading dock door. The train never stops either. Correct! This is the Front Side Buss. To complicate this further, the train and the tram run can run at different speeds.To make a transfer between the tram (Memory module) and train (the FSB), both the tram car and a train car must be in perfect alignment with that single loading dock door in a single instant. Any miss-timing and your new computer system will either hit the interior loading dock wall, or be sent in between box cars to be smashed for sure! In any case, the transfer CaN not occur. Speed is fine, but this drill is mainly about TIMING. Newegg's loading dock master has quite a challange. This loading dock master is called the "Memory Controller." On our current platform, his loading dock is in the Northbridge. (It's getting moved to the CPU die with Nehalem). Our dock master definitely needs help and he uses a tool called tRD. He will pull freight out of the warehouse tram-car, delay it just a moment, then fling it into a passing train-car. A tRD of 12 means he can get a load into every 12th train-car. If he could somehow find a way to get freight into Every train-car (FSB Cycle), he could reduce a customer's wait (latency) 12 times . . . that's 1200% . . . and That's a Very big deal. It could be that SloWing either the train or the tram down a notch could allow him to "Hit" either the train-car with outbound freight (or "read from memory") or hit the tram-car with inbound freight (or "write to memory") MoRe often. Increased frequency of these transfers events could more than make up for any reduction in train/tram speed. Slower - might just - work better! Simply kicking up the RPM may NoT provide an improvement. But which one do we tweak? One . . . or the other . . or both? Woah! Now we're into it. Little steps. We'll do that next." (and so far, I have No idea).Question it all. Positive contributions are more helpful, pathos based assertions, less so.

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>>Your affirmation that this was the source of my mainboard>failure, is just another example of your tendency to come>across as authoritative,>>End of LineNick, your attitude is out of line. If it helps you to say for the third time, End of Line, then please, by all means, stick to it this time. Yes, end it please. Let's leave it, forever, in Peace. Over and out. If you wish to communicate with me further, please write me directly at ncp10@pacbell.net. I'd be happy to share other thoughts with you in a private venue so we don't waste other peoples' valuable time here. I will not respond to future comments from you Nick. Good bye and Best Wishes to you and your family.


Noel

System:  9900K@5.0gHz@1.23v all cores, MSI MPG Z390M GAMING EDGE AC, Noctua NH-D15S w/ steady supply of 40-60F ambient air intake, Corsair Vengeance 32Gb LPX 3200mHz DDR4, Sabrent NVMe 2Tb x 2, RTX 4090 FE, Corsair RM 850W PSU, Win10 Pro, LG Ultra Curved Gsync Ultimate 3440x1440, TCA Boeing Edition Yoke & TQ, Cessna Trim Wheel, RTSS Framerate Limiter w/ Edge Sync for near zero Frametime Variance achieving ultra-fluid animation at lower frame rates.

Aircraft used in A Pilot's Life V2:  PMDG 738, Aerosoft CRJ700, FBW A320NX, WT 787X

 

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Thanks for the explanation. Wow, I once learned all that in college for my BS in Computer Science when we built 286 systems and learned all about bus speeds, timings, etc, but I forgot all about it, mainly because speed back in the days was not as important as it is now - everything was slow compared to today's standards.But in plain English: With totally optimized and synchronized RAM timings, the performance boost would be what? Objectively 1%?Can you give us some benchmarks?I know that overclocking is a serious hobby and can be a lot of fun, but I am possibly just not understanding the bigger picture in relation to FSX.Anyway, thanks again for the extensive explanation. Very much (and honestly) appreciated.Pat

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