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Bjoern

Influence of L2 cache on FSX? (Or: Q9300 vs Q9450)

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Hello to everyone!I've been a long time lurker, but since this question is quite important to me, I finally decided to register.Doing a forum search for "L2 cache" didn't turn up anything useful to me, so I'm asking this right here.Does the L2 cache of a CPU have any influence on FSX performance?I'm planning to upgrade my system (see signature) next week, but I can't decide whether to get an Intel Q9300 (good bang for the buck) or the more expensive Q9450 (more bang due to larger L2 cache?).As far as I've read, the Q9300 is a very good CPU already and fairly overclockable (3.2Ghz should be doable), but the Q9450 has 12Mbytes L2 cache - a whopping 100% more than the Q9300, and is said to overclock better (higher multi).In any case, I'm going to pair the new CPU with new 2*2Gb PC800 Ram. The mainboard (P5W DH Deluxe)could be an issue though, since it is quite old, but the new 45nm quads are supported via a BIOS upgrade.If anyone knows something about Q9xx quads running on the P5W, feel free to post it here. The number of reports I've found on the web so far is pretty low and I'd like to be absolutely sure if it's worth spending 200

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Cache isn't a performance issue with FS. Go with the highest CPU clock you can get. The Q9300 has a 7.5 multiplier. That means a 400Mhz FSB will be able to drive it to 3.0Ghz. The Q6600 has a 9 multiplier, so that same 400Mhz FSB will drive it to 3.6Ghz. Onboard cache is a non-player, but a 20% CPU clock increase will make a significant difference. You'll need the same cooler in either case. I'd say go for the 66. If your mobo has speed step, that can save lots of some power. It will declock to a 6 multi for emailing and only kick-in the 9 multi for loads. Also use S1 sleep. Save a tree.

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I tend to disagree on this one. I had a Pentium4 CPU which did around 3,8Ghz. With E6600, which is doing 3,4Ghz, getting MUCH better performance in FS9 than on the oldie Pentium. So my explanation is nothing else than L2 Cache (it was the same GPU back when I upgraded)...

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I can't help with the cache question but a word of caution here about comparing a Pentium 4 with an E6600. The Pentium 4 was a completely different beast from the E6600: not just the cache, but a whole different architecture. The new architecture ("Core 2", as Intel calls it - confusingly: not the same as "Core Duo", although a "Core 2 Duo" is two Core 2 cores in a single package: get it?) gives MUCH better performance per clock cycle than the Pentium did.Tim

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True story. Remember how the AMD Athlon wsa cleaning Intel's P4 clock . . . at significantly slower CPU speeds? Intel finally wised up and 1) Stole AMD's Athlon architecture! 2) Renamed it "Core2," 3) Increased clock for clock performance by about 20%, 4) Then reduced the price by 70%.5) Intel's next-gen Nehalem will only be an extension of this strategy. It will copy-cat Athlon's on-board memory controller and Hypertransport buss, renaming this assembly "Quickpath."and finally (next month) the transition will be complete.

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>True story. Remember how the AMD Athlon wsa cleaning Intel's>P4 clock . . . at significantly slower CPU speeds? Intel>finally wised up and >>1) Stole AMD's Athlon architecture! >>2) Renamed it "Core2," >>3) Increased clock for clock performance by about 20%, >>4) Then reduced the price by 70%.>>5) Intel's next-gen Nehalem will only be an extension of this>strategy. It will copy-cat Athlon's on-board memory controller>and Hypertransport buss, renaming this assembly "Quickpath.">>and finally (next month) the transition will be complete. >http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/192418.jpgyou're going to give an old EE a heart attack laughing with that much shoveling Whats next?Memory speed and latency does not make any difference because AMD's memory latency does not make FSX run better??????I might dig that post up.. that post was a gas! Even a friend at AMD got a kick out of that one.No, no, .. wait, I got it!!!!Nehalem is all hot air because AMD's controller does not run FSX better than Intel right now!I think thats a good one to dig up as it deserves the full treatmentclassic

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>Does the L2 cache of a CPU have any influence on FSX>performance?>YeshoweverThe motherboard you are planning to upgrade to is going to be your weakest link. The chipset on that board is not going to be chatting in FSX speak and the boards ability to use the proc/memory where FSX needs the most will be hinderedTherefore throwing money at the huge L2 Quad proc is not going to help you in this case.You are better off going for clock over L2 with the 975x chipsetNo matter what you do, that chipset is not a good base to work with for FSX goodnessThis is one of those rare occasions when I would suggest a dual core clocked as high as you can get it over the quad, and I rarely ever suggest that. Bj

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Sorry about the noise. Hopefully security will be along soon.If that 975 will get anywhere near 400Mhz and works well with the Q6600, that'd be your winner. FSX chipset-chipchat is not an issue. You'd be able to ride out the entire Nehalem generation and upgrade in ~ 2 years with Sandybridge . . . but you'll Need that quad. The next MaJoR improvement in performance will Not be Hardware Based. The software guys will finally figure out how to efficiently use multiple cores. If you have a dual in your socket, you'll need to upgrade sooner. If you have a quad, the "upgrade" will already be there. I seriously considered a 965 for this current build. However I was used to paying about $150 for a mobo and the P35s were right there. The P35 was the end of the line for these stand alone chipsets and supposed to be a big help (in something). When it finally showed up, there was widespread disappointment. There was no performance increase over the 965/975. Let us know, but I'm betting your 975 will be just fine.

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>>1) Stole AMD's Athlon architecture! >What an accusation. That post deserves to be deleted.Ulf BCore2Duo X6800 3.3GHz4GB RAM Corsair XMS2-8500C5BFG 8800GTX, Creative SB X-FiFSX Acc/SP2, Vista 32

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The secret formula was all in that single file cabinet. Who would have thought? In the dark of the night, some really strangely dressed guys scampered upstairs (blue tights the Washington Post reported). AMD was celebration yet another record quarter. They weren't looking and zing. ChipperGate! Didn't you hear? Ebb and flow, and so it goes.

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I can't stand this anymore! I'm new here but I have to say this: Sam, What are your credentials? I really hope your advice is not followed here, you are misdirecting people! Please go humble yourself and listen to the real experts and stop pretending to be one.-jk

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Setting aside the pissing match (or trying to, anyway)...It seems to me that Nick has deep technical knowledge and is trying to guide users toward the best possible system performance.It seems that Sam is trying to guide users toward a best-value system that performs reasonably well for a tolerable cost, and without a huge time commitment for system management.There ought to be room for both viewpoints.As a "civilian" with limited time and limited funds, I may wind up going in Sam's direction - with a sense of what I'm giving up, but then, everything's tradeoffs.Just wanted to share that before everything gets completely personalized.Alan

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OK, fair enough. I guess the "best" vs. "best value" thing is playing out in my own mind, not on this board.But just so's you know - I'm reading these messages through this filter: Am I up for building a best system, or only a passable system?Considerations: Best system will run ~$3,000, and require a steep learning curve and a large time commitment.Learning curve and time commitment are compromised by other obligations: running a (non-tech) consulting business (with insecure income), running my father's massive home care establishment (I'm an Alzheimer's caregiver).Therefore, passable system has this appeal: Costs ~$2,000 less, seems to require only a couple of adjustments - not bad for a first-time builder and overclocker.Downside: passable system might not be that much better than my passable Dell XPS 700 from 2006 (won't go that route again).Alternatives: buy from Jetline or somebody like that; stay with XPS 700; walk away from FS for a while. Have done it before - been simming for 20 years, but gave up for a while after FS2000 and this might be time for another hiatus.Maybe there are others in similar situations. Maybe not.Thought you guys might want to know some of the real world scenery where the discussion is playing out.Alan

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Go back up and Read my post again Alan.. I edited itAs for expense.. if you put out for DDR3 there is NO HEAVY LEARNING CURVE or time investment... its practically plug-nGO if you buy the right parts.. key is knowing what to buyYou will find plenty around here I posted around that.DDR2 is the platform you must pull your hair out on to tweak-up and the fact is you only get limited results that will not match DDR3 without serous overclocking later

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Sir Tim Berners Lee has recently been expounding on the peculiar difficulties the internet poses when it comes to separating fact from fancy. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7613201.stmIt is partly a question of viewpoint. If I may be forgiven the condescension, I would like to venture a viewpoint of my own: Nick_N's posts seem to be technically perfect, so far as an amateur can judge them, although their meaning is sometimes a little opaque for non-technical readers like me. On the other hand, not all of Sam's posts are completely wrong: but they are not all perfectly complete and they sometimes make assumptions about the reader's objectives (eg, securing value for money) which may be unfounded and which can lead to over-simplifications, possibly misleading ones. Thus in our own little forum, we have a good example of what Tim Berners Lee is worried about.What is the solution? In our case, I am absolutely sure that nobody means anyone any harm by giving advice on this forum. So hopefully a deep breath and a cup of tea will be enough. Then - dare I condescend yet further? - closer attention to how clearly we express ourselves before hitting the "send" button? And at the risk of turning from the condescending to the outright patronizing, I will pose two more questions: forums like this are not JUST idle chatter. For one thing, they leave a trace: is it one we would wish to leave to posterity? For another, today's posts might help tomorrow's readers: so have we included everything we need, and said it clearly enough, to make our posts as helpful as we would wish when we read them again next year?Tim

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Thanks. Plug-nGO is definitely appealing. I'll research your posts.Alan

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TimIf Sam had the guts or the ability to say"In my opinion""I'm not sure but I think"

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>Thanks. Plug-nGO is definitely appealing. I'll research>your posts.>>>AlanAlanLook up Noel on this forumHe has been through the hair pulling DDR2 tweaking to the practically plug-nGo DDR3 experience and can give you some directionIf you are going to buy now and not wait for Nehalem then at least put yourself in 1 year old tech to get you through till the next round of platform upgrades..Since Nellie uses DDR3 you can at least transfer that to the next platform to get you started and not have to shell out part of the expensegood luck

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>>I'm outta here now>>>I should have done it last week>Oh no, Nick!We need true experts around. Sam is sure neutralized by now.Please stay and continue advicing me and other hardware noobs. I would really appreciate your advice when the first X58 mobos and Bloomfield CPUs will hit the market.Ulf BCore2Duo X6800 3.3GHz4GB RAM Corsair XMS2-8500C5BFG 8800GTX, Creative SB X-FiFSX Acc/SP2, Vista 32

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>>>>I'm outta here now>>>>>>I should have done it last week>>>>Oh no, Nick!>>We need true experts around. Sam is sure neutralized by now.>Please stay and continue advicing me and other hardware noobs.>I would really appreciate your advice when the first X58 mobos>and Bloomfield CPUs will hit the market.You know where to find me if you need adviceand the Nellie numbers are there, even in alpha they are showing some very impressive results where it counts.

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>>You know where to find me if you need advice>>>and the Nellie numbers are there, even in alpha they are>showing some very impressive results where it counts. >Nick,Yes, I know where to find you :-)Ulf BCore2Duo X6800 3.3GHz4GB RAM Corsair XMS2-8500C5BFG 8800GTX, Creative SB X-FiFSX Acc/SP2, Vista 32

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Thanks, will check on/with Noel as soon as I shift from dithering to my own version of hair-pulling.By the time I decide on a direction, Nellie may be here. Even if not, imminent Nellie gives DDR3 an edge. I do want to build in some degree of future-proofing - if I shift to Nellie a year out, I'd rather carry over as much hardware as possible.Thanks again.Alan

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