Aircraft add-ons and the ethics of doing business...

[Guest]

Being a part of the flight simulator community is always an interesting way to spend my time, and I enjoy the many resources available on the internet. I've found alot of great add-ons that are absolutely free and I've also purchased some nice aircraft for FS2002 in recent months.One of the online providers of add-on aircraft is Carenado.com, which has a couple of free aircraft as well as the ones they charge money for. I'm sure at least a small percentage of you have heard of Carenado. I've actually purchased 4 of Carenado's aircraft with an average price of $17 each.However, I've never had the...uh... displeasure of communicating with Carenado until recently. Therefor, in the interest of informing the community, I present the following email dialog that I had with Carenado.--- --- --- -------- Original Message ----- From: D***** B***** To: askcarenado@carenado.com Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 6:45 AM Subject: Purchased twice?? Hello, I purchased the new Piper Dakota online last night, but the first time I tried, I got an error from the Transbank website that the purchase could not be processed. I waited for a little while and then tried the purchase again, which worked fine and I was taken to the download page where I downloaded the Dakota package. However, a couple hours later I received TWO purchase confirmation emails, both with download links. Does this mean that I was charged twice for the same purchase? Thanks for your attention. Regards, D. B. Kansas City, MO. USA#####----- Original Message ----- From: AskCarenado To: D***** B***** Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Purchased twice?? Ok you made 2 purchases of Dakota ....we offer the Archer II and a Bonanza for your second purchase. Carenado#####Uhh... okay... Well, the Archer looks just like the Dakota... and I already have the Bonanza F33A, which probably doesn't look much different from the Bonanza V35, except for the V-tail, of course. So, basically, what you're saying... is that I'm fu**ed. Is that right? Well, I guess if you're offering me another aircraft, I guess I'll take the Bonanza V35... Thanks. I think. D. B. #####Well ...only you know if you are fu**ed!!!.....but here is a remedy to your a$$!!....the V35 ...enjoy!! *hyperlink removed for this forum* Thanks Carenado#####My, how sweet. Being both rude AND unprofessional will surely reward you with a satisfied, albeit imbecilic, group of customers for many years to come! Thanks again, and have a great day! :) D. B. ##### Mate... if you are using bad words ....why we don't?...... or you are "very special"?..... If you respect ...should be respected!!! Good day Carenado ##### ##### #####That's pretty much where the "conversation" ended. I sent him another email and explained that there is generally a code of business ethics that address the customer/retailer relationship.I mean, c'mon. Am I wrong or was he out of line for handling the situation the way he did? A "remedy for your a$$" ??? Since when is it acceptable for a retailer to be rude to a customer? I used one word of profanity because I was a little miffed by the fact that I wasn't being given the option of a refund for the extra amount that I was charged. He didn't even offer to look into the situation to see where the mixup occurred!BTW, this was not a case of being impatient and hitting the "submit" button more than once on my end. The bank site that was handling the transaction actually gave me an error and said that they could not process the transaction at that time, and even TOLD me to try again later. But, the transaction WAS in fact handled without my knowledge.Then, as you can see, he has the audacity to make the excuse that because he felt I was using "bad words" that is was okay for him to do the same. Of course, he didn't stop at using profanity, but made a direct point of insulting me outright. I've worked in customer service and security (airport security as a matter of fact) and one thing that was always taught to me is that you are to remain professional and courteous even when faced with the most unpleasant of customers.Well, anyway, you can see the implications here, but I just wanted to post this purely for informational purposes so that anyone who was thinking of doing business with Carenado will have an idea of the kind of person(s) they are dealing with.BTW, Carenado's aircraft aren't done very well IMO (in fact, the quality goes down with each new release), but this incident has terminated any business I was doing with Carenado regardless of the products they offer.R.H.---------"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese."

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"I've worked in customer service and security (airport security as a matter of fact) and one thing that was always taught to me is that you are to remain professional and courteous even when faced with the most unpleasant of customers."Airport security is a far cry from retailing, where I worked for many years followed by a fifteen year stint in the hotel industry. I was very glad to finally get off the "lines" several years back and into the background, so to speak. I had my fill of the customers, and just wanted to trash a few for the "in your face" attitude on one hand, and that of their begging for professionalism on my part on another.Most businesses have a standing rule, and it was enforced almost everywhere I worked--once customers introduced profanity, we were advised to terminate contact--IOTW, hang up if on the phone or walk away and seek help. My superiors didn't care about lost business--it was business they felt they didn't need, and they did not expect a line clerk making just above minimum wage to deal with it. In the case of Carenado, you don't know if it was the owner, or an admin. assistant who was screening the emails. Regardless, the conversation lost its professional tone the minute you introduced profanity. What followed is no one's, and everyone's fault.No matter how angry the customer gets, introducing profanity personalizes the discussion--in many cultures, including the one Carenado is in, such profanity is akin to an assault and an insult against the person who has to see it. It's not you vs. Carenado any more--it is you against the person who had to read the language. I score the conversation a loss for both sides--you lost your cool, and so did they. It happens, and since the FS2002 add-on industry is populated with people hardly schooled in customer service basics, it's a risk we face when our patience runs out and our mouths step in....-John

[Guest Timbo]

"in fact, the quality goes down with each new release"I've found quite the opposite. I just purchased their Dakota and it is, by far, the best modern GA plane I've flown. About the conversation above, I have to agree with John. You can't start using profanity at the retailer and then expect it not to come back at you.[TABLE BORDER=0][tr][td]

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Last updated Dec. 31

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[Guest Lindy]

I agree that profanity should never have been allowed to creep into the e-mail exchange.However, I also agree that the response to the original concern was handled badly. It was clear that the buyer wondered about being charged twice for one purchase. I too would have expected that an offer to void the second charge be made. -Lindy

[Guest The Ancient Brit]

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[Guest UweR]

Hi, I would have responded to your second mail just the same way."I used one word of profanity because I was a little miffed by the fact that I wasn't being given the option of a refund for the extra amount that I was charged."They offered you TWO aircraft to compensate for the mistake (does it really matter who is responsible if a solution is found?), if you didn

[Guest]

Sorry, a minor miscalculation on my part. The 4th aircraft I bought was the Dakota itself. I figured I would at least give Carenado the benefit of the doubt, since just because the others were somewhat disappointing doesn't mean they all are. Well, that didn't turn out to be the case here.FSD International and RealAir Simulations offer vastly superior products, so I stick to my opinion when I say that Carenado's aircraft are nothing to get excited about. I've got FREE aircraft in my collection that are better, actually.R.H.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Not sure if you came to cite an issue of poor customer service, or bash Carenado.... My opinion is the latter now after seeing your second post... If their products are so poor, perhaps you shouldn't make the mistake of buying from them again. I haven't purchased their products, but I have to say the V35 looks very nice--certainly better than anything freeware I've seen. Being a big V35 fan, I'm all ears if you know of a freeware '35 that's better.....

[Guest UweR]

...and I would gladly accept the link to the better Dakota...Seriously though, pooo happens. Carenado offered you a compensation for the double purchase (as I understand their mail the Archer AND one of the Bonanzas), and you have every right to ask for another solution if the compromise offered doesn

[Guest BobL]

RedI'm going way out on a limb here and assuming you are in the US.Under our law, the second charge constitutes an un-authorized charge. I recognize that Carenado is an extra-US firm but they are doing business in the US which brings them under our law under certain treaties. I don't know if Columbia is one of them. My point is that US-bank issued Mastercard and Visa providers will intervene for an un-authorized charge. Note I said un-authorized charge. Not dis-satisfaction with the product, poor quality or buyer remorse so even if you are dis-satisfied, keep your focus when talking to the bank. Some banks have a $$ limit before they will step in and others do not. It's been my experience that CC providers take this type of thing extremely seriously to the point of pulling the vendors VISA/MC authorization.Your statement should have a 24-hour customer service number. Call your card issuer - and promptly. See if they can help. BobL

[Guest eko]

Gawd.... open mouth, insert foot.I just don't understand how folks who try to sell stuff can possibly issue communications like that.This has got NOTHING to do with the quality of their products (I think that Carenado has been putting out some nice products at very reasonable prices), and that them offering you two planes for a double billing is a somewhat decent counterproposal/ammends for the mistake... it's all about the customer service and public relations.I have responded to sooo many e-mails regarding my freeware offerings (everything from support to feature requests, to flames, to nicely worded thanks), and I would NEVER think of offering the kind of response Carenado gave you as a paying customer. I don't care if you told them that they should be run over by an 18 wheeler and drink their own blood... you simply DO NOT respond to a customer that way. Period. The End.Folks, defend the planes and the craftsmanship (warranted, IMHO), and you can even get down on the original poster for not being very aggreable with his language as well, but PLEASE, do not defend the response that Carenado gave... you make yourselves look extremely uneducated and foolish if you do... just like Carenado just did.

[Guest eko]

Gawd.... open mouth, insert foot.I just don't understand how folks who try to sell stuff can possibly issue communications like that.This has got NOTHING to do with the quality of their products (I think that Carenado has been putting out some nice products at very reasonable prices), and that them offering you two planes for a double billing is a somewhat decent counterproposal/ammends for the mistake... it's all about the customer service and public relations.I have responded to sooo many e-mails regarding my freeware offerings (everything from support to feature requests, to flames, to nicely worded thanks), and I would NEVER think of offering the kind of response Carenado gave you as a paying customer. I don't care if you told them that they should be run over by an 18 wheeler and drink their own blood... you simply DO NOT respond to a customer that way. Period. The End.Folks, defend the planes and the craftsmanship (warranted, IMHO), and you can even get down on the original poster for not being very aggreable with his language as well, but PLEASE, do not defend the response that Carenado gave... you make yourselves look extremely uneducated and foolish if you do... just like Carenado just did.

[gosta 0]

Hi Bob,you have to be careful here. Your advice would be correct if Red Honda did not accept the offer of a second aircraft. If, however, he did download the V35, trying to cancel the second credit/debit card charge would constitute attempted fraud.Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest]

Okay... wait...I can see that this will be mixed bag in terms of opinions, and I thank "BobL" for the information regarding credit card law. Yes, I am in the US, BTW.The general idea however seems to be that we (Carenado and I) were BOTH right AND wrong on different levels simultaneously.Well, regardless of who started it... I decided to be the one to finish it and I offered a formal appology to Carenado as of today. Without going into ugly details, my personal life has left me with far too much anger and sorrow in the past 18 months... and despite the anger management classes, I still find myself overreacting to people around me.As I'm sure we've all seen, the anonymity of the internet allows us to vent more frustrations than we would in a face-to-face situation. Such has been the case here, and I therefor also extend an appology to those in this forum for creating a topic that really has little to do with the joy of flight simulation.No, I didn't come here to bash Carenado... and as red-faced as I must be to say this, the Bonanza V35 is actually a pretty decent add-on aircraft. I still think the Dakota's instruments could be cleaner, especially in the VC... but...Anyway... that's all for me.Thanks everyone for posting your views.I'm outta here.R.H.