How to write SIDs & STARs for PSS FMC?

[Guest BushPilot]

I would like to know if it is possible to write SIDs & STARs for PSS FMCs? If so, is there any file, manual or document available to explain how to go about in doing this, similar to the PMDG FMC "how to write SIDs & STARs"????Stephen

[Guest stang]

Hi there Stephen. This is not exactly the answer you wanted but are you aware that there are DAFIF derived SID and STARs available for some of the PSS aircraft? If not, check out http://home.sw.rr.com/filesherenow/index.html for SIDs and STARs for 561 airports.RegardsTerry

[Guest BushPilot]

Hi TerryThanks for the link, much appreciated.I'm actually looking for a way of writing some SIDs and STARs myself for PSS a/c. I have written some PMDG SIDs and STARs which work very well and I'd love to do the same for PSS, but can't find any information on how I should do it. PMDG has written a very nice little manual explaining exactually how to go about to do this. Maybe someone could assist me with something similar for PSS.Stephen

[Guest pbn]

I've looked at the navdata, and the files are in text format. I could import them in a spreadsheet as a CSV file, which makes editing easy(procedure depends on whichspreadsheet you use). I tried importing some of the procedures from the above mentioned package and it seems to work. I don't know the function of all fields but many are obvious. I know this isn't exactly what you are looking for, but mayby PSS could suply you with some documentation.CheersPeter

[Guest stang]

Hi Stephen>PMDG has written a very nice little manual explaining >exactually how to go about to do this. Just a little correction. PMDG didn't write that tutorial, I did. However, it did require their inside knowledge support. It certainly helped to be a beta tester for PMDG though. I put updates of the tutorial in the avsim file library. As it did with PMDG, it may take PSS support to get you going although close study of the format may be all you need. If/when you get to the finished product point you may want to get PSS Insert from the avsim library. It will automatically insert the procedures you make into the master PSS SID/STAR file.RegardsTerry

[Guest BushPilot]

Hi TerryThanks for the reply. Sorry for refering to PDMG as the writer of the tutorial on the subject. I was in fact only refering to the product, being the very neet tutorial, which I got from them. I must say, it gave me very good insight into the operations of the FMC, how it thinks and what it does.I am a flight procedure designer by profession and design real procedures. I then write the procedures I design into the PMDG FMS and "test fly" them, under different conditions (i.e. wind, temps, pressures). Just to see whether it is flyable or not and how difficult it will be, with reference to pilot workload. We then take the actual designed procedures and test fly them at our local airline in an actual B737-800 simulator for trial and evaluation and then only does the procedures get published. I use the FS sim as checking tool for myself, which is a great tool in my type of work. But the real fun is in the actual real sims we fly once a month. I'd like to write the procedures for the A3XX CMDU and for the Dash 8, but the "programming language" for the A3XX, DASH 8 are completely different to that of the PMDG 737. Your tutorial helped very much and it works great. However, I still have a problem to get the procedures into the PSS CMDU.RegardsStephen

[ps1flyer 9]

>Hi Terry>>Thanks for the reply. Sorry for refering to PDMG as the writer>of the tutorial on the subject. I was in fact only refering to>the product, being the very neet tutorial, which I got from>them. I must say, it gave me very good insight into the>operations of the FMC, how it thinks and what it does.>>I am a flight procedure designer by profession and design real>procedures. I then write the procedures I design into the PMDG>FMS and "test fly" them, under different conditions (i.e.>wind, temps, pressures). Just to see whether it is flyable or>not and how difficult it will be, with reference to pilot>workload. We then take the actual designed procedures and test>fly them at our local airline in an actual B737-800 simulator>for trial and evaluation and then only does the procedures get>published. I use the FS sim as checking tool for myself, which>is a great tool in my type of work. But the real fun is in the>actual real sims we fly once a month. >Hi Stephen,>I'd like to write the procedures for the A3XX CMDU and for the>Dash 8, but the "programming language" for the A3XX, DASH 8>are completely different to that of the PMDG 737. Your>tutorial helped very much and it works great. However, I still>have a problem to get the procedures into the PSS CMDU.actually, the "pogramming language" used by PSS has been derived from a real world aviation standard named "ARINC 424". There is a subset of ARINC 424 rules which describe how to 'translate' real world charted flight procedures into electronic databases (e.g. for flight planning or airborne use) and exactly this subset has been utilized by PSS, with some modifications. I wonder that you are not aware of this standard.Basically, the concept is based on a system called 'Path and Terminator'. There are different waypoint types (some fixed in space, some conditional) ("terminators") and for each waypoint type there are different methods of approaching that particular waypoint ("path"). A nice overview of the different Path & Terminator leg types can be found in a FMS marketing brochure:http://www.uasc.com/documents/products/SFMS_bro.pdfor in the numerous documents of the ARINC 424 NavDB working group (http://www.arinc.com/aeec/projects/ndb/) e.g. in the appendix of this document:http://www.arinc.com/aeec/projects/ndb/ndb_wps_august04.pdf(check e.g. p. 32)Now, there are some 20 fields with data associated with each P&T leg type which store information such as inbound course, VOR radials, crossing restrictions, speed limits and, of course, waypoint data. Not to forget forced left/right turns and much more. I once made a documentation of all this stuff e.g. here:http://forum.vacc-sag.org/viewtopic.php?t=1475&start=31(partly German language, most of the docu has been written in English, though)Note that PSS did not manage to make all combinations of P&T leg types work. There are some pretty horrible errors in their interpretation of the correct data (e.g. at AGGH SIDs) but you'll notice after some time. Note also that the PSS SID/STAR database is derived from a read world SID/STAR database with some corrections made by its author Prabal Ghosh (e.g. when using FC or FD leg type, e.g. at EGKK SIDs). So, in short, PSS has some limitations but most of the time, the ARINC 424 will work just fine.Note also that real world airplanes have a 'programming language' for their SID/STAR/APP procedures in the FMC that is very close to the PSS 'language'. The PMDG way of doing is pure fiction. ;-) ... with other limitations.Hope this helps, Markus

[Guest sb55mv]

Hi Everyone,:-)Firstly, I hope that the PSS guy's :-shy don't mind me posting this in here as it's not a PSS issue,:-shy but with a degree of lateral thinking I feel that in a small way all this is inter-twinned if you know what I mean,Stephen, Terry, Peter, Markus, I have read all you're posts about this and think that there must be something we can do, surely well educated individuals as ourselves :+ can beat this, and even make all this one universal Flight Planning / FMC language, as I have found out that Helge Shroder has now Officially retired to Canada, so unless someone else takes on FS Nav I will literally be lost over the Atlantic, Forever,:-roll as a navigator I would make a good road sweeper.now then, if you look here you will start to see what I mean > http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...d=215875&page=6 this was started to find out if this program would be able to incorporate any other / modified form of the SID / STAR usage so that we may be able to use it for out planning when on long haul, I fly on VATSIM all the time, but with the lack of FS Nav we are all going to come somewhat un-stuck. I personally don't have a library of charts and plates at my disposal, so utilise these planners continually to get me from A to B, I then export to FS9 into the PSS planes of which I have the lot:-kewl, then into S/Box for the VATSIM guy's to give me the go ahead, I thought this FS Commander was the answer, but it appears not as it can't give the SID/STAR info for the plan !.I hope that you all agree that this affects us all in one way or another,on a personal note, I never realised that Flight Simming could get so complex, and I feel deeply for the program makers of PSS and the like, sometimes they just can't win, example, we want ''as real as it gets'', they deliver, then WE bash them for ''my plane loads slowly'' or ''why have my frames dropped'' etc, surely they have done just what we asked !.thank you all, and especially the PSS guy's, I can't wait for the Concorde, but I just know I'm going to struggle with the INS, it took me a long time to master the FMC,Steve.

[Guest BushPilot]

Thanks SteveAs per my previous posts, I am really interested in writing some SIDs and STARs and as a procedure designer in real life, I enjoy this part of flight simming a bit more than the part of aircraft detail, stairs, liveries etc. Designing the procedure, test flying it, adding this and that, it is my food :0)Comming back to the comments by Markus (thanks for the reply and advice, it is very very helpful indeed), I know about the path and terminator concept, I use it when we design RNAV GNSS procedures. But I was not quite sure what format the PSS FMC use. Is it local C++, Visual Basics etc...The provided links gave good insight, thanks. One can surely build SIDs and STARs by just using the FMC entries (LAT/LONG) and putting the restrictions in the LEGS page. But that defies the entire purpose, in real life one should not be able to "build" own procedures. I design procedures so I know the danger lies, in real life. In 2003 an IL76 crashed in East Timor, because the crew flew a GPS procedure they developed while trying to land in IMC conditions. Now this, is dangerous. But then again, this is FlightSim not the real world, but my aim is to fly procedures as loaded into the DBASE (read-only) and not one designed by the crew (me doing it in the FMC). So, if I know the correct terminology used by PSS for developing SIDS and STARs, once can surely write procedure to be added to the DBASE, which will make flying fun. Aspecially the RNAV procedures, they are a great way to fly.I will definately look at the all the comments again & again & agian...to make sure I fully understand the advice. Once again, I appreciate the feedback and comments, and what is so nice about this, I made other friends, sharing the same interest, flying FS aircraft. RegardsStephen